Speaker A: Welcome to the Therapist Burnout podcast, episode 36. Hello, therapist. Welcome back to the program. Today I have a guest, Andy Benckart. How’s it going?
Speaker B: It’s going pretty well. Much cooler here in Maine. So I’m pretty happy that I’m not just flooding constantly like we have been for the last few weeks.
Speaker A: I know. So Andy is in my state. So we are talking over, but we’re talking virtually, but we’re actually not that far away in distance, but still on a screen. You know, one day I’m going to have, like, a podcast episode, like, in person. That’s a dream. It’s going to happen one day. Maybe. Maybe I’ll invite you to that. We’ll have, like, a panel podcast, which I think would be super fun. I think you can, like, rent podcast studios. I’ve looked into it. So it’s in my brain to think.
Speaker B: About real working spaces in Portland, too, that we could easily, like, get in to.
Speaker A: Yeah, most definitely. So, yeah, I. That has my brain turning. Thank you for that. All right, so I will kick it off to you and just ask you, what is your burnout story?
Speaker B: Yeah, so I am currently in grad school now, but I worked in residential treatment for about four to five years. And my burnout story is essentially that, like, I was so overworked at residential and, like, not moving up at all that somehow the way to be less burned out for me was going to school. I think for a lot of people, that’s, like, a pretty insane. Oh, my job is so stressful that, like, grad school is less stressful. But that has been the case. I’d also say I have, like, same. Yeah, I had every reason to say, too, like, I am a former client. I was a part of the residential program. Like, I had every reason to want to be there. And I was so burned out that I was like, well, grad school, I’ve been wanting it. I don’t see myself feeling, like, left bad. So, like, at least school will be different and what hopefully get me a little bit less turned out, even though I’m still doing more work, it’s just different and not as intense. Yeah, it’s pretty crazy that, like, going back to grad school was the way that I, like, had to find a way out to not feel, like, pretty consistently emotionally and, like, physically burned out every week for a while.
Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I said same because I was working in foster care before I started my doctoral program. And it was either like, I’m going to do an MBA and go into business or I forgot. Like, I even told my, my partner the other day, I’m like, I actually have a minor in marketing. I forgot all about it. Like, it was so many years ago that I did that, but I have one. So it was either like business or I get the doctoral degree and I did that. So I think a lot of people would resonate. They might have had some burnout previous to becoming a therapist or in the process of becoming a therapist. And I have another guest that’s coming on very soon that is talking about their burnout actually in school. So they experienced it like during the pandemic and seeing clients on their. Or maybe it’s right after. Anyway, maybe I’m wrong. At any rate. Yeah, I was going to ask you about residential because I feel like in the, in addiction oftentimes like an LADC or a licensed drug and alcohol counselor, it’s different licensures. Is it always LADC? I’m not sure. People in the recovery community could be a client, right. And then they might provide care within their own recovery community, which is, I feel like unique to mental health. So maybe speak a little bit to that, how you can kind of become a client and then work.
Speaker B: So this is like more common in the recovery community. I was also in a place out, like generally mental health. What we would take on some addiction, like addiction falls under that. But like, I think it’s like become a norm elsewhere in recovery programs and residential treatment is usually through every day. So like, other programs that started picking up, I have to say what it is. I think very impactful and helpful in a lot of ways to be a client and then be a provider because I’m like, I know exactly what you’ve been through. But on the other hand, I experienced like a life stress because I was like, oh, this is my life. I’m seeing other people go through what I’ve been through. Like, beyond empathy burnout. Like my life and my job were so deeply intertwined that I also think that being way more burned out because I don’t know where work ends. And again, but I lived in the house that I worked at, I knew all the people. What were my providers? They went from being providers to co workers. Like, it becomes so intertwined. And though I think that there is like substantial benefits for the clients I was working with because I was like the person that could actually like talk to them one on one and not be like a. I was still a position of power, but like they could like bring that down for a second and talk me up to someone that’s been through a similar experience. But on the back end, my life was like much harder. Like, it’s hard to leave work at home. When you’re working, your life are two of the same things. And I think that happens a lot in like specifically recovery community spaces because that’s common for people to become house managers. I just became a BHP and I wasn’t specifically dealing with recovery in general, though. I was sometimes I was dealing with general mental health issues and I’d become their recovery person if they needed me too because I fit that niche. But I think the double edged sword of being super useful because you can understand also led me to. I had no control over my life and my job because it’s like the same thing and I couldn’t.
Speaker A: Yeah, you’re living. You’re living like inside of work all the time. Work is happening and you’re living. So I would imagine some of the clientele would become friends because you’re living there or friendly. I just don’t know where. Yeah, and that’s began and ended for you.
Speaker B: That that’s what was like the hard part because I did end up like developing good boundaries and everything. But at the end of the day, clients saw me as like more close to client. Sometimes I felt like it couldn’t be considered like a work. Like I wasn’t respected as much as other staff members client. I was in this weird like zone of like, yeah, just kind of like loading. And when you’re doing super intense work and your wife doesn’t have like clear boundaries, that’s just like a recipe for it slowly eating away at you. Which is what happened to me is that over the years and even though I did great work and I loved it there, I just like started to lose that steam and that fire in me and I could just feel how burned down and what worn out I was going to be. Plus like shift work for the most part. For the proofs of couple years, I was working like twelve or ten hour days every day. And then I got like a slightly better shift. But it was still like I would have a few minutes each and that would be about it. And then I’d either drive clients or X, Y and Z, support other staff. And I like love the work I was doing. But on the other hand, for my personal life, it was like impossibly hard to figure out where I fit in. And that was part of the reason I went back to school, because I was like, at least I’ll be able to build my own path of being a social worker in my own right, then it’s like this weird loading person. And I think this happened for a lot of people that end up doing the way transfer over. I’m in the Portland recovery community and it’s pretty common for clients to become staff just because that’s what a norm.
Speaker A: Yeah, it is. I mean I, I’m a, an adult child of alcoholics. So I kind of grew up in twelve step programs and in the rooms as a child and then later Al Anon and all of my own work there. So I, I think what a lot of people may, if they’re not in the recovery community, don’t realize is like that’s part of what the community instills in us. Like from the twelve step is that you’re, you’re then giving back. But I don’t think.
Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And I think there’s parts of that that are like great and work in your daily life, but when that becomes your job and your recovery become tied, that’s what part. And that also happens to me when you’re in the place that you like 180 your life and you’re living in that every day and also a completely different person. I am lucky that I’m educated and I can see that that was an issue. But I think not everyone, oh, I’m in two different spaces in the same space every single day and it’s my job. And I think that burns people out of really bad.
Speaker A: I’m just curious about, you know, if someone does that. I mean you’re the burnout. But then what about their risk for relapse? Yeah, because emotionally they’re not caring for themselves the way they need to in recovery. Yes, they’re in recovery all the time in these meetings. But really it’s not the personal work they’re doing. They’re not receiving a bunch of care. They’re giving a bunch of care.
Speaker B: And I think I’ve heard about that happening and I think it also like can build resentment. I mean that’s like a twelve step word. Everyone kind of uses it in twelve steps. But like you can build resentment against like your own recovery because you’re like seeing people not, not quote unquote get it or not like succeed like you did. And I think if it’s not taken into account that like you’re your own person and that makes it even harder when you’re just again working in the place that you live, the place you got sober, like the lines are so worried. I feel like relax is like more and more common among recovery professionals that work sober themselves. I am like more nationally tapped in just through like, other larger programs. And it’s not uncommon, people that are in recovery, that game. Recovery professionals do, what, three laps because the laws aren’t clear or that, like, they don’t actually get care. They get care completely. And then like, that internal burnout isn’t talked about as much. Living in this like two, you’re in a two person system inside of you where it’s like, oh, yes, there’s a part of me that needs this to survive and also it’s my job.
Speaker A: There’s so many layers. I’m thinking of your, your thought and resentment because I, I know that for therapists, I talk with them a lot about anger and resentment in their burnout and, uh, in constant giving. So maybe can you speak a little bit about your experiences with that?
Speaker B: Yeah, I think I definitely started to gain some resentment for my work just because I was propped up as, like in a good way and a bad way is like, hey, you can do this. You can get through it. You can change your life. Like, here’s someone that went through the system and like changed it and that’s like, great to have. I think there is something to be said, like, up here showing that it can be done. And they aren’t just like, in residential. There’s a lot of their own terms for like, getting through the program or whatever you call it, depending on what residential program they end there. Well, they’re like acronyms and words set aside to, like, that program. And like, I was working with young adults and they’re like, not listening to it, but I was the person to be like, oh, this is real. But on the other hand, like, I started to build resentment because I was like, I got all the benefits in my own life. And my wife gained like, 180. And I was like, I wanted them to do it so bad because I know how bad it was for me before I went residential and it went, I love my clients, but sometimes that’s like, if you just like, give in and like, work hard, like, your life can get better. And then when they didn’t, I’d be like, I’m like, here to show you that it’s possible and then you’re not doing it. And it’s like very human to me because it is personal to me. And then, like, that builds your sentence. I’m like, you can just like, show up. We can make this work and your life can get better and you can’t show them that. So instead you just have to, like, bite the bullet internally, especially for me, it’s, like, very personal. I was on desk door before I got sober, and then I went through programs, and it helped me. And though not everyone was dealing with the same level as possible issues if they didn’t follow through, but they’re still hurting themselves in some ways. And I felt pain as someone that did. And then it’s really hard not to be kind of ****** off when they weren’t doing it. If you’re someone that has, like, experience the benefits of following through and just, like, changing your life and making it better.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Knowing that they’re just, like, leaving freedom and a life of. Yeah, just a much better life on the table because they just aren’t willing to, like, meet with their clinician, meet with their wife. Like, all these things that I’m like, it’s just like these little drops in the bucket that make your life better. So, well, wait. And then they wanted to.
Speaker A: I think you’re not alone in, like, that. That feeling of. I called it, like, there were some clients I worked with that I felt like I would throw the therapeutic sink at them. You know, like, okay, I have all these. I’m EMDR certified, and I’m most certified brain injury specialist, and I’ve, you know, have 20 something years of experience, and, like, I’m throwing everything I know, all the therapy skills I know at you, and nothing is sticking and you’re picking it up. And, like, we know why. There’s a lot of reasons, of course, why clients may not be successful in therapy, namely trauma, intergenerational trauma, substance abuse, which is just so high for relapse and difficulties. Like, intellectually, we know, of course, like, I can lead the horse to water, but I can’t make the horse drink. Right. Emotionally. However, as a therapist or as a mental health professional, that feels like failure.
Speaker B: Yeah. In many ways, and especially in such a high stress situation, we wouldn’t be given a third option. It would just be like, get them out so they can do the thing and support them and intervene in any way. You look bad if you can, essentially. And that’s burned out because that’s like, being like, oh, I am, like, put under the gun for, like, a client ability to show up because they have to keep the house running. Residential runs in very specific ways. Like, in one hand, I get it. Like, they need people to attend the services that they’re offering. Like, that’s why they’re there. On the other hand, I’m like, I can only do so much. And now it was like, I am, or I’m getting treated like I’m failing because I, like, didn’t intervene the right way. That way could have made them show up and, like, you never know what that weight is going to be every day. And there’s multiple clients in the house, and I’m only one person, and I have to, like, drive people to work and, like, pick stuff up. And I was juggling with just day to day tasks on top of that and then having to be like, why didn’t you get them to come down? Or, like, why didn’t you get them to do this? I’m like, I’m only human. And also, like, that’s why they’re.
Speaker A: I don’t know. Cause they wouldn’t. Because they didn’t. They didn’t feel like it that day and. Yeah, so I’m with that.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So I’m wondering, you know, if we can kind of transition to talking about, like, how are you doing now? And what. What’s it like to be a MSW student or someone who is a student and your program is. I know social work can be, like, not therapy.
Speaker B: Yeah, I tracked the clinical.
Speaker A: The clinical track, right. I mean, I’m a clinical psychologist, so, like, other people’s licensures, I just, I’m like, I don’t know what they do. I just, I know that about social work.
Speaker B: There’s also so many, like, I’m in a. I come from, like, my family’s in the medical background, so I’m just. There’s so many letter names for, like, specific certifications, generally, even outside of the mental health field, that I can’t keep track of. Like, my sister is like, a nurse practitioner, my dad was a doctor. I can’t keep track of what all their certifications, honestly, for me, which is. It’s very, very good right now. I think because I was coming from such a high intensity setting, that schoolwork, for some people feel like I could see how you can get burned down from school. For me, it’s felt very, like, freeing because I’m not under the gun with no supervision, just trying to make it through every day, like, a twelve hour shift, being like, what’s gonna happen today? I’m gonna have to deal with it, like, a lot of weight there. And for me, it’s been, like, super freeing because I, like, have supervision every week. I never had that at all. It would probably happen every couple months. There is specific self care stuff they talk about within the program.
Speaker A: That’s, what are they teaching a lot.
Speaker B: Of it’s like self care isn’t just what you do outside of your work, it’s how it shows up in your work, too. You have to be able to take time for yourself, not be overloaded with cases X, Y and z because they’re taking more of the structural approach that if you’re overwhelmed at work, no amount of time outside of work, like within the x amount of hours before an act of work are going to get you out of your burnout. So they more talk about it as like, how do you talk to your like supervisors on clinical site about like taking days off if you need it for like mental health days? How do you like work in actual self care? And you like work, which is like very liberating for me because I had like the exact opposite where they would like kind of talk about it, but it wasn’t like it was acceptable to a point, essentially. And depending on what your life role is and how like high up you were in the organization, I was pretty well. So like, I can call out sometimes if I have like chronic migraines, I would usually make work even with them. But it was never supported in it. Like most of the time that had to show up because I was the one that was dealing with all the background work that no one else wanted to do.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, and I identify with that because my first, my actual first job. Did I say that on this podcast already about that I worked residential? I just said it on the pre interview or did I say it like in already on this podcast?
Speaker B: You briefly mentioned it in both. But in depth, I see people that.
Speaker A: Listen to us are probably like, she said that like ten times. I like to laugh at myself. So, yeah, so I think I worked with all inner city boys. And so this particular program had kids that came from out of state. So we had some in state kiddos, but we also had kids who were like all up and down the east coast would come to this program and actually had a co worker who worked juvenile detention and this residential treatment center. You’re like, juvenile detention is like so much easier. That is very telling. And what are we doing for our children? Yeah, you know, like, what are we even doing? So that was a really tough job. And I remember me as the residential counselor, which was the person on the floor, basically. So I, you know, was doing kind of what you were doing probably. I didn’t live there. So people didn’t live there. They had shifts. It was shift work. But I remember seeing the therapist and I was like, oh, I’d love to be the therapist. They seem like they get so many breaks. Like, that seems great. I can do that. And I didn’t go into my program for another, like, my doctoral program probably for another, like, six years after that. But I just remember thinking, like, therapy seems so much easier than what I’m doing, not considering, like, what they were dealing with, of course. And, like, the different burdens of that. Um, yeah. And I think similarly to you, I didn’t. I found school to be, like, very restorative and refreshing and healing from my burnout. I remember actually having, like, 3 hours of supervision. So I had, like, a site supervisor. I had my personal supervisor at school and had group supervision, which equaled, like, yeah, like, four. It was even. Maybe it was even five or 6 hours of supervision, and I was like, I could never burn out as a therapist. Like, it’s never going to happen. How can I burn out? This is such a rich experience. And so I was just, like, the caveat that, like, we need to continue to, like, maybe not 6 hours of supervision a week. Okay. When you’re fully licensed a lot, too.
Speaker B: Then that you’re just in, like, meeting brain.
Speaker A: Yeah. But we go from all of that supervision, talking about our work, being seen in our work to then being a. Not doing any of that, being alone.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Which I think is really the problem. Like, we go from, like, this community, you have a cohort of classmates probably, that know you, and, like, you’re forming great relationships with them. I’m hoping for you.
Speaker B: Yeah. And.
Speaker A: And then.
Speaker B: And then it goes, Zach. Nothing. Yeah. And everyone.
Speaker A: I think it just requires intentionality. Like, if you are in solo practice, it requires an immense amount of an intentionality to cultivate, like, a peer supervision group, making sure you’re seeing. Actually seeing people.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So. Yeah, so. But I think a similar experience of, like, I was burnout before my program, coming from working in different roles in mental health and then going to school feeling like, this is great, never going to burn out again. And it just finds you. Yeah, it just finds you. If. If you don’t heal like that root. And. And sometimes it just finds you anyway. Like, there’s a pandemic that happened maybe, like, four years ago that also can burn you out and you don’t have. You can do all the things you can do, and that’s just. You went through fire. You got burned. It’s fine.
Speaker B: And I think also the thing that I want being a part of, like, the recovery community and residential is that they’re all built off of like a community. And like I’ve heard community talked about by therapists about like the clients we work in to like without end. But I rarely heard it talked about on like backend. And I like, I think a good part of my way twelve step has its own issues and everything, but like the thing that they do hammer home is like, you need other people and you need community. And I think I was lucky that I had that when I started working. I did have good relationships with co workers and did have all these things, but it did not bake in. But like our, how we’re taught or like if we had like educational stuff on our like job site, like a lot of it wasn’t being talked about. How do we take care of each other? Like, cause we’re a community of like workers, how do they take care of each other? Like, I made it my goal, be friendly with everyone because that where safety is. As someone that was like uh, cereal isolator and alcoholic at the same time, I know it’s like a hard counter that I have to do, like, even though I don’t want to do it. But I don’t think everyone gets that kind of messaging. I think we get that messaging for clients. Like I hear about community care all the time in the recovery community, but I hear it not much on the therapists should get together more. Like, there should be more of a like built in community system that we just don’t have. Like, I have clinicians that I’m like very good friends with through all these things and they, there’s no place for us to be or go into consider like we are kind of islands depending on where you’re working together. But like, that never worked as someone who tried to be an island for 21 years unless my life blew up. Like, that’s the thing. Like, I’ve been interested in private practice, but I know that the double edged sword of like you’re putting yourself on an island and we talk about community with our clients. Twenty four seven, and then on the back end do the opposite for ourselves.
Speaker A: I’ll say that one more time. Say that one more time.
Speaker B: We talk about community all the time with our clients. And I did it, but on the back end, we never do that for ourselves. Yeah, and it’s not talked about built in. It has to be systematic. But I think private practice was like developed so people could like make more money within the system. And that’s just like the system we live in where like capital is important, but on the other end, then you’re just alone within the sea of hard emotional pain. Even on the, like, low end. Some people do with much higher beauty, some people deal with much lower. But that level of, like, emotional pressure on anyone alone is like, too much there.
Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the thing you said, too, about the importance of community is really stressed in the recovery community. I know that, you know, just from, you know, being in the rooms, that is a huge piece they talk about to healing is communities coming to meetings, is having a sponsor, having someone know you. Right. That’s a, that’s healing in and of itself. But when we work with clients who aren’t in a recovery community, there’s no similar thing that we’re recommending to them where you’re like, um, can you go to the gym and, uh, wait, no, that’s not. No one talks to the gym. Okay. Um, can we. The grocery store that doesn’t talks there. Okay. Where do people talk to each other? Uh, nowhere. Like, it’s hard to. So it’s. It’s. I feel like one of the problems I had as a therapist was that I would trying to help my clients find community like, they needed. That would be the answer to, like, their depression. Yet I could not cultivate community for them. It had to be something. And yet it’s so hard to do anyway. Just in a human. A human in 2024. How do we.
Speaker B: Yeah, we all are working like nine to five plus, like, notes, hours. Like, I know therapists, I would say later. So I’m like, I know it’s not just like nine to five, quote unquote, meetings are great for me because it’s like, free separate donation. Like, that’s a rarity nowadays, especially with, like, I can see how it’s still hard, especially with, like, low income clients. When you go anywhere and everything, like, commodify and then on, like, the back end for us, it’s like, okay, now we play coco clients. Like, try to find community, and then there’s none for us either because the same issues that we run into, like, you’re not going to go to a bar and, like, send like, $30 and be like, I hope I meet someone, or I hope I find, like, similar people. Like, there’s not many areas build community for people that need it, especially in, like, helping roles. Like, I feel like there’s a lot of. We get a lot praised. But on the other hand, like, the system doesn’t really, like, support us on the back end at all. Like, unless it’s for another way to make money through, like, insurance or what? There’s an app that makes it easier for you to do X, Y and Z. Like, you never hear about people coming out and being like, is there a way to help therapists and, like, PhDs not feel so stressed since, like, I haven’t heard anything. I know there’s stuff for like, nurses and everything. I always said, like, post Covid and then someone that started working residential during and after it. I’m like, we are the downstream fallout that everyone forgets exists. All the post Covid issues essentially hit social work two years after everyone’s moved on. And then, like, what is that? What point?
Speaker A: And like, someone else said that, an interview to me. Like we. But someone else just recently said the same thing. I don’t know. It was. Maybe it’s an interview that’s going to come out, but I was talking on. But someone was just saying, like, there was never a time where we really got to have any healing. Like, we didn’t have a moment or. Or as a society just because I think, you know, we went. We’ve gone from one crisis to another. If it wasn’t Covid, it was, you know, racial reckoning and political crises after political crises. So I think there’s just more healing work to do and these conversations need to continue. I think there are some groups that are starting to talk more and more about what therapist needs are. I mean, I am one person with a voice that is trying to amplify other voices, but of course we need more people to do it, to talk more, to try to think about how we can start to cultivate community? I’m actually talking with someone. Hopefully that will pan out with Nami of Maine in our state to try to cultivate some more community for the clinicians here in Maine. So stay tuned. Hopefully that will be something that is forthcoming. Yeah. So, I mean, as a student, like, have you thought about how your. If you could see your career trajectory as you’re starting your career, like, how can you start to see having more balance? I talk about counterbalance, not balance, because when you come off a trauma session, like, there’s no balancing that. It’s. I have a certain energy that got depleted and now I have to restore that energy. So it’s more thinking of, like, I need to counterbalance all of that stuff with connection, with healing, with thinking. You and the recovery community, you get that piece.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Because they talk to you about it so much.
Speaker B: Yeah. So I definitely have, like, thought of that and, like, one of the ways that I, like, fueled myself personally was like, having like, non negotiable essentially in my life. And, like, a lot of that for me is like, I go to one meeting a week. Like, I work in a social role, so, like, social battery. Going to a meeting every day is not in the cards or I’d be burned out of meetings, which I can’t really do for my own survival. And then for me, it’s like the other thing that bring me joy that I, like. People in my life know that I need to go and do this because during the week I’m taking on such hardcore external pressure that if they want me to show up in, like, their lives, like, the way I show up for my clients, I need, like, certain things. Like, I’m a year round surfer. Like, all my friends know that if there’s surf, I’m like, for these 2 hours, like, you’re not going to find me. I’m going surfing. Like, this is the thing. That way it makes me want to be alive and like, love my wife and, like, all these things. And then, like, the other things are like, I talk to my family every week. Like, these small, little, like a thing that I was lucky enough to hear, like, very early in my recovery and I’ve kind of taken into everything is that it’s not about making the change, like, way over time. It’s about making like, a one degree change every day. And, like, I think that’s the same with, like, trying to get away from, like, burning out again. It’s like, if I make these, like, slow one degree changes to take care of myself, the likelihood that that’s going to happen over 365 days is a lot less. Non negotiables are hard, but there’s certain things that come up in life and you’re never going to be able to, like, always do that. But I learned if I, like, have certain things that, like, people in my life know will make me, like, happy and show up and, like, be at work, okay? They know it’s part of me and they know if I take this time, like, I can show up in every other part of my life. Like, that’s how I’ve been able to, like, even when it was like the worst time at my job, but I still had those. And that’s what made me be like, okay, I can show up again. And sometimes you can, like, tip them off and sometimes you can’t. I would try my hardest to find a way that I, like, always was in the water. Like once a week. I was, like, always going to my own therapy session. I was always, like, going to meetings, like, I made sure I had things that never allowed me to get my cup so empty that it floated. Because I know that feeling as someone that’s in recovery. And I think, like, with a lot of people that are, like, very smart and educated, like, we can intuitively know that. But that feeling isn’t, like, always talk about openly and, like, I am lucky and unlucky in a lot of ways that I, like, have had a lot of challenges really early in my life. So I know, like, how bad it can get emotionally, and I know where those lines are, and I think those conversations aren’t happening as much generally with everyone in working health poll. But where are your lines that, like, think they’re gonna go off the rails? Because I know what that feels like, and I’ve had a life where it’s gone off the rails, like, due to. Yeah, just, like, emotional disaster and explosions. Because that’s essentially what, like, addiction is over time. But being able to, like, realize that and, like, constantly move, like, one degree away from whatever that.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Was the way that I like, and that’s how I just went my, like, now. And that’s what I want to take into my, like, practice. Like, these non negotiables. Like, that means I’ll have to, like, change my hours. Well, I know I won’t be in the possible but worst place, and I know what the worst place was, like, which is tough to say as, like, a 29 year old. Like, that’s been through that already. But it does help that you don’t end up that place that way, which I think happens a lot for, like, people that haven’t experienced that.
Speaker A: So good. So good. Yeah, I’m just thinking about that 1% change. Cause I think, you know, a lot of people, a lot of the therapists I talk to who are in burnout, they’re like, I needed to change. Like, today I need out. And I’m like, okay, thank God. I do. I do crisis assessment still. And I often think of it like, okay, we are in crisis. And so, actually, we don’t want to make huge changes. And I think the program is actually great about talking about, like, they have a lot of sayings you probably know on the top of your head about when, like, don’t do anything. Grass. What is the. What is the saying? What’s one of the mottos for that program?
Speaker B: I heard very early on was, like, don’t make any, like, major decisions. Like, wait 24 hours before you do anything.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Especially when you’re late, super early in sobriety hits your brain. Just like, I need to do something.
Speaker A: And I just think that’s a human brain. Like, when we’re in pain, right? When we’re in pain, our human brain is telling us, like, we are in threat. There’s a freaking cheetah coming to get us. Like get us the out of here. And so that’s what your brain is telling you. And so it takes a lot of conscious effort and support to have someone support you and be like, I get it is so freaking hard right now and I know you don’t want to hear me say, like, what is the one thing you can do today to help yourself feel a little bit of ease? Like they’re about to throw up, do not want to hear it and still have to say it because there’s no quick fixes for burnout.
Speaker B: And there’s this, like at the end of the day, like I can’t control as much as I think I can. Like, that’s the thing that I love. Like that three c’s that the twelve steps have given me. Like, again, I’m acknowledging there’s a whole bunch of issues with all separate and everything, but like realizing that like, at best I control like maybe 3ft around me every day is like super, super, like liberating and can help you like move towards just like small actions because you’re like, oh, everything else that I’m like completely worrying about or like I’m overthinking about and like that I had that going into work a lot and that would also be going burned out. It’s like, oh, no, I need to do this right. I need to help the client. X, Y and z. What? All these things. I actually can’t control any of that. But I can show up and they can show up and that’s that. And it’s like, what can I control in my life? And it’s usually not a lot and it’s very small, but like, if I take that action, I feel better. Even if not. Like, most of the stuff I do to feel better is I don’t want to do it and it’s not fun, but I always feel better after. But I do my laundry every day on Sunday without fail. And I have been since I’ve been in treatment. And that was seven years ago and it always works. And no matter how bad I feel, if I get it done, I feel better. Like that benign, stupid stuff.
Speaker A: That’s self care. We don’t realize that that is caring for you. That is definitely self care. It’s not like, the fun, like, I went surfing, I did my laundry on Sunday and I made it. I kept the promise to myself that I would care for myself in this way and show up for myself in this way. And I continue to make those improvements in my life and keep my promises to myself. I always think through the promises that I make to myself and how I can keep those. So I love that. Well, I know our time is winding up, but I usually ask people before we leave, how are you finding joy?
Speaker B: Uh, I am finding joy with, uh, the weather being super nice and we have so lovely for me as a surfer, there’s a hurricane swell coming to Maine. So I’m just like, oh, yeah, for Saturday when the waves show up, uh, and just am exciting find and joy and kind of like the changeover of the season and like the winding down of tourist season up here in Maine. What brings me a lot of stress.
Speaker A: So I live in a tourist town. So, yeah, I know.
Speaker B: Well, winding down of tourist season is also just giving me a lot of joy because I love Maine because it’s, like, pristine and, like, there isn’t many people that live here and I grew up in cities, so it’s like just being able to, like, drive and see a few cars on the road and, like trees everywhere and go to the beach and like, just be like, that’s something that I find joy of in everyday life that I never thought I would in my life beforehand. Like, just the small thing again, like, kind of getting back to that. Like, the small things every day is now what, like, brings me the most joy that I can, like, wake up and like, look outside and it’s like perfect weather and, like, clean out and, like, I don’t. I have worries, but I’m not, like, completely afraid of being alive and living, which I did experience for a while.
Speaker A: Yeah. And I think people even say it’s not recovery, it’s some. I felt that in my burning, like, I had symptoms of depression and anxiety that were pretty significant from burning out. And so I think if you’re a therapist hearing that, that it can get better and that, like, there’s things that you, like, there’s 1% changes to find some beauty today, find some joy today. Those simple things that we tell our clients that we don’t apply to ourselves are available to you. So, anywho, I appreciate you so much being on the podcast. I’m sure a lot of people can get out of a lot of the things you said. Where can people find you if they want to connect?
Speaker B: So my LinkedIn is just my name. Currently, I’m just in grad school, so I don’t have, like, a business page or anything. But if anyone would like to connect with me there or. Yeah, I think that’s the only social media connected to, like, the business side of my life right now. You want to connect further, that could change.
Speaker A: The LinkedIn’s a nice, you know, that changes, right?
Speaker B: So right now, that’s kind of where I’m, like, doing all my, like, personal professional development. And then later in life or down the road when I’m, like, more established, I hope to have more places where people can come and find me.
Speaker A: Cool. All right, well, thank you for so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker B: Yes, thank you.
Speaker A: Hey, therapists, thanks for listening to the episode today. If you love this podcast, send it to a therapist friend who may need it. Also consider leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. It lets the podcast player know that this is a great podcast. We should send it to more people. Also, I’d love to hear from you. I have included my pen pal list for other therapists. Yes, I do write back, and I’d love to hear from you request for podcast topics to know how you’re doing in these therapy streaks. So I’m here for all of it. I would love to hear from you, and we’ll talk soon.
