Speaker A: You’re listening to the Therapist burnout podcast, episode 48.
Hey, therapists. Welcome back to the podcast. Today I have a guest. I have Dr. Lisa Herbert. How are you doing today?
Speaker B: I’m doing wonderful. Thank you so much, Jen, for inviting me on your show.
Speaker A: Yeah, I’m excited to hear your story and have other therapists hear your story as well.
So I will kick it off to you, and if you could just tell me a little bit about your burnout story, that’s how we start our podcast.
Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. So my burnout story really is, I think, rooted in what a lot of physicians sort of go through.
As you may know, your audience may have seen, I’m sure, sure, in a lot of the media, publications, that physicians have a really high rate of burnout, you know, upward now towards about 63%, which is pretty high.
And that number has only increased, you know, since obviously, the pandemic. Prior to the pandemic, it was around the 50s. Now it’s as high as 63%.
So I was one of those physicians who actually, you know, went through burnout, and it was earlier on in my career. So I’m a family physician. I had my own private practice.
I practice for about 25 years, actually, so a lot longer than, you know, what the time period of what most physicians are staying in clinical medicine now, but I would say probably around maybe 10 years or so or 15 years or so into my practice, I knew something was different.
Like, I started just to feel different. There was this feeling of just being exhausted.
And for physicians, a lot of times, you know, a lot we can’t tell the difference sometimes because, you know, there’s just fatigue in the work that we do. Right. Because it’s long hours.
A lot of times we are on call, so, you know, there are a lot of nighttime interruptions.
So the fatigue thing really just didn’t hit me at first as being a sign of burnout.
But then I started to realize that this fatigue was different. So no matter how much rest, you know, I got, I would go on vacation, come back still exhausted, did all the things, and still had this, like, this dragging feeling, this emotional exhaustion.
So that’s when I knew something was wrong.
And then there were some other little things happening as well. And it was really when my daughter, who is now 27, but at the time she was 13, she basically said to me, mom, something is wrong.
Like, you’re just not the same person that you were before. You’re not as happy as you were.
And it just really. It just. You Know, hit me, you know, in my gut because we have a really close relationship and I didn’t want to show up as that person for her or my son at the time.
So I started to just kind of take some time away. I stepped away from my practice because I had to get a handle, you know, pretty much on what was going on and realized that this burnout thing was real.
So there was the emotional exhaustion, I was irritable a lot, you know, didn’t find joy anymore in practice.
Started to just, you know, I wouldn’t say isolate myself, but certainly take myself out of the situations that used to, you know, really bring me joy before.
Started to be a little cynical, you know, about things, depersonalization, you know, all those signs and symptoms.
So once I realized what it was, I knew that I needed to get help for it.
And you know, thankfully enough I was self aware enough at that time that I knew I needed to do that.
And you know, I actually had a therapist that I went to to try to help me to get through it. I hired a coach as well to help me to figure out, you know, what my next steps were going to be in terms of my career path.
And that sort of led me down this path of self discovery of one things that I knew that I needed to do that I was not doing.
You know, like we can talk about this, you know, a little later but like creating boundaries, getting rest for myself, speaking up when I, you know, when I needed to, not taking on as much, not feeling like I have to take on, you know, as much work as I did.
And yeah, so that self discovery process that I went through and realizing what it was and that I had options and I think that’s what a lot of people sometimes feel stuck is that they don’t realize that you do have options, you know, there are other choices that you can make.
So a choice for me at that time was to slow down my practice and then figure out what the next steps were, you know, for me in terms of my career.
And I decided after practicing all of that time, I spent a little time doing some non clinical work and healthcare leadership and then realized that the coaching is what really spoke to me.
One, because I experienced it myself and the positive things that it brought to me and my life and my family. But I knew that it could also help my colleagues as well.
So I sort of went down the path of coaching and that’s where I am today.
Speaker A: That’s awesome. I have so many questions and I.
Speaker B: Gave you a lot. So I hope I Hope I didn’t.
Speaker A: Oh, no, no. Yeah. I mean, I think I could pick. I could kind of go into so many different directions, but I think I, you know, a couple of the things that resonate with my group of people is just feeling so tired and feeling like you have to take it all on, that the workload really doesn’t stop.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: And there’s just something interesting about like that 10 year mark of being like really into your career. And that often coincides for a lot of highly educated women around midlife, around.
Yes, a very difficult time. And I think a lot of women’s life, particularly women, that’s a majority of my audience. There are, I’m sure, a few men who listen to this podcast and probably that you work with as well, but I think females in healthcare therapists or folks that do this kind of really helping work, it’s just so much.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And you know, I think that, you know, we are as healthcare providers, you know, I just used a broad term. We’re caregivers. Right. So, you know, our day to day is really taking care of people.
And unless we’ve really recognized that we have to sort of put boundaries around that even and carve out some time for ourselves, you know, so that we can fill our cups as well, as much as we give to others, that we can end up, you know, in this state of burnout and the state of just being chronically stressed and just feeling like you just don’t have enough energy to give anymore because it’s all been given away.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was also curious about your perspective as a physician.
Like, what does that look, what’s the kind of different flavor of your burnout because of your training? You know, I know you guys, I, I don’t know. In my mind I’m imagining doctors on call early in their training.
They have to work like these 24 hour shifts sleeping at the hospital.
So just give me a little window into kind of how doctors are socialized and how that really shows up in your burnout differently perhaps.
Speaker B: Yeah, so you’re right. I mean, early on, you know, our training. Well, if we start even from before we get to medical school, a lot of us are high achievers, you know.
Speaker A: Of course you have to be, they.
Speaker B: Have to be type A personality. We want everything to be perfect, you know, and then we have to be the best, obviously, because, you know, you’re dealing in the situation of a physician’s life and death.
So, so, so there’s that pressure to always, you know, be one Hundred percent to be on top of it, to not make a mistake, you know, And a lot of times I don’t feel like during our training that we are made to feel as if we’re humans, because we are humans, make mistakes, you know.
Yeah. Obviously we all need to have the support that everyone else has as well, you know, from other, in other industries.
So you have that, you have also just the amount of training, you know, that, that we have to endure as well. So that’s four years of medical school consuming an enormous amount of education and knowledge and what seems like a long period of time, but it’s actually a short period of time when you look at the amount of information that you have to learn.
So again, there’s this competition, there’s just this thing of feeling like you have to be the best. You have to be 100% all the time. You have to be perfect.
And then you’re competing to get into a residency program with a very minimal spots per specialty.
You get into a residency program and then it’s like the wheels just keep turning.
Speaker A: Right, so how long is your residency?
Speaker B: Yeah, so it’s specialty dependent, but primary care is typically three years. So that’s four years of medical school, three years of a residency program.
If you are in a specialty like, like surgery, that’s five years. If you are like a, you know, neurosurgeon, that’s seven years. Plastic surgeon, that’s seven years. So it really just depends on the specialty.
But it’s anywhere between three to seven years, you know, and during that time you are seeing high volume patients. You’re seeing, you know, obviously very critical patients.
You’re on a call schedule. So, you know, they’ve tried to improve upon the call schedule now, but I mean, there was a time where we’d be on call every third night.
So just imagine every third night being up 24 hours and then having to go in the next day and then having to still perform and see patient.
Speaker A: Which is dangerous.
Speaker B: Which is dangerous. Exactly.
Speaker A: Yeah. I heard something more recently they were trying to limit, you know, how much doctors had to be on call. But probably back when you were training, if you’ve been. Yeah, you know, if you trained 20 years ago, that wasn’t the case.
Speaker B: It was like not the case.
It was not the case. And it was no way of getting around it, you know, over it, under it. That that was really just sort of how it was. And now, you know, like, you know, like you mentioned as well, thank goodness they are making some adjustments around, you know, how much time a resident can spend on call or within a 24 hour period.
But yeah, so there’s the long hours, there’s the call, and then there’s this sense of just, you know, having to show up for each patient that you see in a given day and be able to give to that person because you want to.
Right. But after, you know, seeing sometimes 20, 30 patients a day, that can get.
That can be a little draining. Right.
And just imagine the. Also physicians that have had to. That had to work through Covid.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And just seeing patients, you know, just dying every day and not being able to sometimes do anything about that. So taking on that. Right.
And internalizing sometimes a lot of that, not having the space to debrief about it, not having the space to grieve about it, and sometimes not even feeling like you can go seek help because of maybe some repercussions that may happen, you know, from that.
So yeah, so that’s that sort of the difference.
Speaker A: I was still in practice during that time and so I did see a couple of.
Not any doctors, but nurses and like med assistants and stuff like that. I remember them telling me stories of be like having to get in a papper. I don’t even know what a PAPR was.
But you know, they would tell me about how they would get into it and what it was like. And you know, you. It took a long time to get in the thing.
So like if you had to use the bathroom or you know, do any kind of self care, that wasn’t happening. And sometimes like staff would forget about them in the papr and yeah.
That they needed something so.
And in all the layers to like the trauma that medical professionals experienced, I think in the pandemic, you know, still dealing with that.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: If they didn’t happen to leave medicine because of that, if they’re still in medicine, still dealing with, you know, dealing with patients and the trauma of all of that, seeing people die on a large, large scale, which maybe they hadn’t seen before.
Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, for a lot of physicians too, you know, for the most part, we go into this because we want to help people. Right. And I think that when there are obstacles and challenges, difficulties that are placed in your way that don’t allow you to do that, then that even becomes something that’s just more stress and more, you know, trauma, if you will, that starts to creep in as well.
Because now I can’t do the thing that I really want to. I can’t do the things that I love because I Have to, you know, some somehow try to figure a way around it or, or deal with this difficulty.
Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. I talk so much about insurance on here because.
And I just read what came out about mental health parody that they’re trying to supposedly. Right. They’re gonna, they’re gonna cover. Cover equally mental health as physical health, which they were supposed to do, but it hasn’t happened.
And so I think they were saying a huge percentage. I don’t have the percentage in my mind of people are going, I have to go out of network to get mental health care.
And because they’re not paying therapists close to what they’re being paid for, you know, physical health conditions, like, similar to maybe even a physical therapist or something with like a kind of commiserate training or something.
But I think it’s like navigating that system.
So we all want to care, you know, whether whatever your specialty is, if that’s, you know, medical doctor, if that’s a therapist, psychologist, we want to provide that care. Yet, you know, maybe we’re not getting paid for that care and we have to be on the phone with the insurance company for a bunch of hours to figure out payment or we’re limited to 15 minutes to be with our patient.
For you, likely. Yeah, for me that’s, you know, 45 or 50 minutes.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But what can you really do? I always think of when I go see my doctor, how are they like really getting a sense of what I need and then providing, you know, continuity of care, like contacting other folks that I see like my OB GYN or like this one or that one.
Speaker B: So to your point, Yeah. A lot of times that doesn’t happen right in that 15 minute visit.
And that’s where the burnout comes in as well. Because a lot of docs and healthcare professionals are taking that home.
They’re charting at home, they’re trying to find time outside of work hours, you know, to finish up the care that they feel that they’re. That their patients need and deserve.
So. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: So maybe I’ll transition to. Just ask you kind of how was your road out?
You know, you saw, you had this place where you were knowing, like, I am burnout. This isn’t working.
So what was that process like for you?
Speaker B: Yeah, so definitely it was just the self awareness, like I said, was huge. It was just, you know, being open and having the help and the people around me who helped me to see.
Right. That that’s sort of what I was going through and that I needed to get to get help.
And so the way out for me was realizing that I needed to put myself first, because I really was not doing that.
Getting the people in my life who I felt that would be helpful, you know, letting my family in, talking to a therapist, like I said, getting a coach, um, and then.
And then developing what I considered my transition plan. Right. So how was I going to now transition? Because I felt like I had given a lot of time and a lot of years and a lot of service.
20 years is a long, you know.
You know, it’s a long time to practice medicine. 20, 25 years. So I felt like that I had given enough time. I had served a lot of patients, I had done well in my community.
And the realization that it was okay to leave, I had to come to grips with that. Right. Because that’s. That’s a difficult decision that I think a lot of physicians, even people in other industries who are transitioning out of a career that they’ve had for so long, you know, sort of, sort of goes through, so understanding that it was okay to leave, that I did have options, you know, and then what.
What would it look like to explore those options?
So I worked with a coach. We developed again, my transition plan and what that was going to look like.
So for me, it was really thinking about what I wanted those next start small, those next three to five years to look like.
Who did I want to work with? What did I want to do? What did I see myself doing? What were my strengths? What was I good at?
What was going to bring me joy?
What was going to allow me to still help people? Because that was really important for me.
And once I realized, realized that I could still use a lot of my skills that I had as a physician and that I had, you know, acquired over the years, even some of my leadership roles, that I could use those skills to help other physicians and other healthcare professionals who were experiencing similar situations like I was, that I could be really.
That I could be a support and a resource for them. So I started to chart my course in terms of what that would look like as being. As being a coach and being that person to help other people sort of bridge and move from where they were or where they are to where they want to be in the future.
So I worked towards getting my certification as a coach and slowly, again, just decreased my hours in my practice, started to take on, once I, you know, had obtained my coaching certification, started to take on some coaching clients.
And then once I felt like I was really, really sure of this is was what I wanted to do. Then I felt confident enough and also that it. That it seemed feasible financially.
Right. I was confident enough to sort of transition out of clinical practice at that time and fully devote my time to. To coaching.
So initially, when I first started coaching, it was around helping physicians with work, life balance. That’s what I thought was going to be the thing that would help them to sort of move out of burnout and to thrive.
And although that’s important, what really came to me as the most important thing was helping them to develop leadership skills. And that’s sort of where my leadership development sort of program developed in helping physicians thrive.
So those skills that we don’t learn in medical school, you know, how to speak up, how to negotiate, how to collaborate, how to have a voice, how to think strategically, developing your emotional intelligence, all those skills which aren’t really important to help you develop a level of self awareness that allows you to thrive.
Speaker A: Oh, that’s great.
Yeah, I think a lot of people will be inspired to hear that. And I think the one thing I hear from people about making that pivot, because I talk a lot about the pivot more so than I think in the space, especially for therapists.
You see people talking about like, you know, I’m gonna help you thrive in your role as a therapist, or, you know, go out of network and charge more and, you know, be successful.
But some people do that like, they can do it, but some people are just done. Some people are just, I’m right, I am done.
It’s time to go.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: So I help people that know that they’re kind of at that point where they’re done. Although I’ve helped people, you know, been done with agency and go to private practice too, but sometimes we’re just done, and that’s okay too.
And sometimes we need that permission that it’s okay that we’re done.
Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think a lot of times I can see, you know, the body language change, you know, in my clients that I coach, when I provide that space for them to say, so sometimes they haven’t said it to anyone else like, I’m done, you know, and to have them feel a level of acceptance that it is okay if that’s your final decision and you’ve worked through all of the things, you know, that maybe sometimes push us into making decisions maybe too quickly, but if you’ve worked through all of that and, you know, it’s not something based on fear or uncertainty, and you’re pretty sure that that’s the next step, then.
Yeah, then that’s okay.
Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the key piece that you’re also talking about is that you had a plan. We didn’t make a rash move. You weren’t like, you know, cash my check, which sometimes I had dreams of, you know, even though I worked for myself at the time, just because I think I was just so fatigued, and I think it was working through the pandemic as a therapist, honestly, it was like compassion fatigue.
I was doing trauma work. That was my piece. That was my story.
And I didn’t. Like you said, I didn’t believe for a long time. I had options.
Like, I built this practice. I had all these clients. Like, how could I just.
How do I even start the process of looking at something else but believing you have choices, believing your skills can translate, believing that you’re scrappy, that you can figure this out, that.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: You know, like, for me, I got a doctor degree, Dr. Herbert. You got a medical degree. You know, you. And you talk to people that I have this high level of education, and so I’m talking to mostly women about this, and I tell them, let’s write down all those skills, all the things that you have done and have excelled at in your life, and then tell me you have no options.
Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. You’re so right. And I do the same thing with my clients as well.
And, you know, sometimes I have to just bring up and remind them, Think about a time when you had to be resilient. Like, what was that? And what did you do and how did you survive?
Like, how did you get through it? So if you did it, then, you can definitely, you know, do it now.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: The strength is there, the courage is there, the skills are there. You know, that. That never goes away.
Speaker A: Yeah, that’s so true. It doesn’t go away. And I think attending. You know, one of my key things was my personal therapy, too. I had a piece of, like, that I felt like I didn’t have joy in a lot of things after a while.
That was the pandemic. That was stress, but that was some, like, level of a little bit of depression. And so a lot of times, burnout looks like depression. So I always tell people, like, don’t be, you know, don’t be scared to get some support for that as well, because that could be a piece of this you’re not addressing.
And it’s hard to create from a place or vision, from a place really of lack.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: When you’re in that place where I can’t even See the sun through the cloud. No, we have to, you know, do some gardening at that point.
Speaker B: Yes, yes. Yeah, I think that’s. That’s an excellent point. And I think it’s important, too, for organizations to start to recognize the signs. Right. In their employees, because what they describe a lot of time as disruptive physicians.
Right. Or, you know, not a team player.
Now, that could be. I mean, you know, maybe that. Maybe. Maybe that’s the case.
But we have to keep an open mind about external things that can be impacting the way people are behaving. Right. Outside of just you just deciding that it’s their personality.
Like, maybe are there some other things that we need to be more aware of and help and help those people?
Speaker A: That makes sense. You know, is it something in the culture that. I think they have to look at that. I mean, I think of something one of my friends had told me, who’s a physician, and the local hospital in my area, they give physicians two weeks off per year, period.
And they can’t. Or maybe it’s like they can’t take two consecutive weeks off in a row or something like that. Something that seems like for your level of training, education, how are they telling a doctor when they can take their vacation?
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: But they’re doing it.
Speaker B: They’re doing it.
Speaker A: So I’m sure that’s a huge piece of resentment because then that freedom, which, you know, as part of our humanity, we really want to feel like we have a sense of agency and freedom over our lives and control over what we want to do.
I think that can lead to some of that cynicism, resentment that we often see as a hallmark of burnout, too.
Speaker B: Absolutely.
Speaker A: Yeah.
So I talked about options. Talked about.
And maybe just talk a little bit more about leadership. Like, what if you’ve been struggling with burnout, you’ve been struggling, maybe you feel like you have no agency.
Like what. How do you work with people to develop some of that?
Speaker B: Yeah.
So I think it’s important first to identify the person, you know, if it is a coach that resonates with your story. Right. Someone maybe who has experienced the thing that you are seeking help for.
I think that it just. It just makes the interaction a little bit more authentic, and I think it helps the person to open up a little bit more. So the first thing I would say is basically just.
Just find the right person, you know, that that’s going to allow you to have that safe space to open up about the things that you might be struggling with.
And then so once we Sort of, you know, break down those barriers and break down those walls and start to have really a conversation around what they’re feeling and what’s going on, and it’s sort of what has gotten them to that point.
We can start to sort of peel back the layers of what things can we change in this situation in terms of how you might be addressing problems?
So are you putting your head down about the problem, or are you confronting the problem right head on?
And that’s a skill.
Being able to manage conflict is a skill. So that’s part of leadership development.
When something’s happening around you, are you aware that it’s happening? Are you aware how it’s affecting you? Are you aware how people are perceiving you? So that’s self awareness. Self awareness.
And that’s also a leadership skill.
So, you know, leadership is just a broad term, but there’s so many different skills that are developed under that umbrella of leadership. That really helps, or I find that helps physicians to sort of sometimes move through the burnout, recover, you know, and come out better on the other side.
Speaker A: Yeah. Great. Great.
I’m curious about your. Again, I’m going back to your process a little bit of making that transition, because I feel like a lot of folks get stuck in the leaving and how we start that process.
For me, a lot of that was math.
This is like figuring out how much money to earn, how am I going to make up that income?
So I’m just wondering what kind of was your key? You know, what’s one of those key things that you can kind of go back and look at?
Speaker B: Hmm.
This may sound very basic, but I really think a lot of it has to do with intuition. I mean, it has to do with your ability to know when it’s right, when it’s the right time.
Right.
Obviously, you need the hard numbers. You know, we need to know that financially we’re going to be okay. We need to know that obviously this is a viable and a feasible plan.
Right. That we’re going to move into.
But you also have to feel that it’s the right thing. So. So a lot of it is just your intuition. It’s understanding what feels right to you and being comfortable with that.
And sometimes that’s even a process for you to get to that point that you feel comfortable and confident in knowing that the choice that you’re about to make is the right one.
So, yeah, so that. That was huge for me. It was a feeling like I knew that this was the right time based on obviously, you know, factors and data and things that I’ve that accumulated, but just knowing internally that.
That it was just the right time to do it.
Speaker A: So, I mean, I think I’m hearing too, like, you. You had some trust in yourself. You found trust in yourself, which I think can be hard in burnout. So I think a lot of people talk to me about, like, I don’t.
I don’t even know if I’m making the right choice at this point, because I chose therapy or I chose medicine or I chose, you know, whatever field, and I got it wrong.
Wrong in my head.
Speaker B: Right. Right.
Speaker A: So I think that pro. It can look like for different people. I think it can look different. You know, some people might feel that initially and they can just move because they’re like a fast actor.
They can kind of know, okay, actually, I. This is a great move. I’m going to make it and maybe make decisions easy, but those are all. I think also some people that can take a little longer to get there.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: To trust themselves and to say, like, you know what?
I’m never going to feel 100%. That’s me.
So I just have to get to maybe like 75, 80%, and then I’m just going to move when it’s 70 to 80%, maybe even 50.
Speaker B: Yeah.
And I, you know, and I tell my clients, too, don’t think about it as putting yourself in a box or, you know, or feeling like you have to make the right decision.
Just make the best decision. You know, make the best decision for you. What’s the best decision for you right now?
And if it ends up not being the best decision, you know, a couple of months or years down the line, that’s okay, too. We come back to now understanding that we have options and we have choices and we can pivot.
Right. And do things differently.
And then I think it’s also helping people understand or helping them develop this sense of hope.
Right. That things will get better. Right. And actually trusting and believing that.
That there’s a better way to do things.
Speaker A: Yeah.
And I think just from talking with people that have been through it before and come out the other side, that there is hope that they don’t have to feel that feeling forever.
I love. I think it’s. I can’t remember the quote, but no feeling is final. Is the quote the author? I can’t remember.
I’ll put it in the. I think it’s Rilk. I want to say it’s Rilke, but it’s often a quote I would use when I was working in Therapy, because we feel like our.
Our feelings are final, that they have written everything, but things will. Things can and will change, especially if we’re actively working towards making them change.
So making that pivot, making that next best decision based on the information we have at the time is going to continue moving us forward. Maybe we’ll take a step back, but we still keep going forward.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: If we look at the long trajectory.
Speaker B: Yeah, no, that’s. That’s great. And, you know, high. High achievers tend to always want to have everything in their basket, too, right before they make that next step. So they want to have every box checked, every resource, you know, researched, every, you know, everything sor.
Of ready to go.
And a lot of times that causes paralysis. So people don’t move because they just feel like that they have to do that next thing, you know, check that next box.
And it’s important, like you mentioned, to just understand that we can start where we are and use what we have, you know, to move forward.
Speaker A: Totally. Well, Dr. Herbert, what is finding you joy right now as we close?
Speaker B: Wow. You know, for me, Joy is just waking up in the morning, having a great cup of coffee and. And sitting outside on my deck.
Speaker A: And I didn’t ask you what part of the country you’re in, but what.
Speaker B: Yeah, so I’m in Georgia.
Speaker A: Yeah. Georgia.
Speaker B: I’m actually a New Yorker, born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. And I moved to Georgia about four years ago, partly because of family and partly because of the weather, because I was tired of the northern winters.
Right. So. So I moved to Georgia.
Speaker A: I live in Maine. Okay.
Speaker B: Oh, okay.
Speaker A: It’s beautiful right now, though.
Speaker B: Yes. So, you know, two months out of the year, maybe it’s cold here, if that. But. So I love cold. It’s never cold. I love the. I love the outdoors. So this has been a great transition for me.
Speaker A: Yeah, that’s good. That’s great.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Awesome. I love my coffee. My time. I call it my time with my coffee.
Just to kind of sit and, like, rest and contemplate, kind of ease into the day. I love a coffee moment, so it’s one of my favorite parts of the day, too.
Awesome. So where can people find you if they would like to reach out?
Speaker B: Yeah. So I am on all social media at DrLisaHerbert. That’s Dr. Lisa Herbert.
My website is DrLisaHerbert.com so you can go to my website, find out more information about me and what I do, and you can schedule a discovery call if you’d like to find out more information about my.
My coaching programs.
But, yeah, just follow me on social media. I’m Most active on LinkedIn, so if you’re over there, then, yeah, just follow me or connect. I’ll be happy to connect.
Speaker A: Awesome. I keep telling people LinkedIn’s where it’s at. Yeah, I know. I find I like it on there lately. So, yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I’m sure a lot of people are going to get some great inside insights from our conversation.
Speaker B: Yeah. And thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker A: Of course.
