Speaker A: Welcome to the Therapist burnout podcast, episode 69. Hey, therapist. Today I have David Paulitti, the host of the Empowered through Compassion podcast with us today, talking to us about intersections with burnout and ifs and his own story. So, David, as we do when I have guests on what is your burnout story?
Speaker B: Oh, hi, Jen. It’s so nice to see you again and thank you for having me. So my burnout story, I’m going to start out being difficult here right off the bat and it’s a pleasure being here and we’re going to have fun. I think burnout is a constant state where we always have it. And I’ll tell you what I mean by that. And I’d love to riff off of you and then tell you my burnout story because I did come here with the burnout story.
Speaker A: Are you avoiding your burnout story?
Speaker B: I might be avoiding my burnouts, yes, I might be. But indulge me for a second. No, I think it’s a spectrum. I don’t think it’s this dirty word or this terrible thing. I was thinking about it after we spoke first, first time. And, and I think that it’s like, you know, we all have points of the day, even where it’s a little bit more knocking on our door or a little bit less knocking on our door. If we look at different careers, if we’ve had multiple ones like myself throughout our career, there’s times in the career where it gets a little bit louder, a little bit softer. But I, I don’t think it’s like you either have it or you don’t. I, I think that if we look at our lives, it’s like, I don’t know, I read in the news somewhere that we’re all, or most of us, if we’re not Elon Musk, we’re like three months away from being homeless, like three bad months of work and paychecks away being homeless. I think the same is true with burnout. We’re all in this hyper stressed out world that we live in. We’re kind of at that borderline where we try to protect ourselves, we try to have these great self care skills. I’m a therapist, right? So we’re always talking about self care, self care. But you know, I, I don’t think it’s that far away from any of us. And I think in pieces of our life, we all have it to some degree. So I’m going to tell you about my burnout study. Before I was a therapist, I went to school and I Was dying to be a school counselor, which is similar, but you know, in schools. And I was there six years I was in the school system, and then I went back to get another master’s degree because I was crazy and wanted to in debt for the rest of my life. But when I was in the school system, I was really loving it and really enjoying it. I loved the kids. It was all different ages, but I love the elementary school kids because you’re like their hero. You know, you don’t have to do anything. You just give them attention and you just love them and you’re their hero. High school kids, not so much. And when. Yeah, when I was in the school system, I got pretty burnt out. And I remember being in places where I would say, you know, if we’re on the scale from 0 to 10, how strong is your burnout? I was probably hovering around a 9.5 at times. I remember particularly as we’re talking, one job is coming up where I was like, almost like walking around in a little bit of a haze at times. And it was a high school, an agricultural high school, and it was not because of the marijuana smoke that the kids were probably smoking in the bathrooms. It was more just probably. To be honest, I was burned out. And ironically, that was my first job. You would think it would be by the sixth school system. Actually, that’s not accurate. I was in three or four different school systems, but you think it’d be by the sixth year, but it was. This was my first year in the job, and I would say that I was pretty burned out. And it was probably because of me. It was probably because of overthinking and all of my deep, deep emotions that were coming up. And as I was thinking about this story, there’s definitely parts that were coming up inside of me that were contributing to this feeling of being burned out.
Speaker A: Yeah. So maybe say more about that. Say more about. Maybe we can just start by giving a little bit of, like, parts worth. And if therapists don’t know, because I think we should just talk a little bit about parts and maybe what parts were coming up for you. But just in general, as a theme of therapist parts, which might be a theme of this episode, to talk a little bit about that.
Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. Well, parts work goes way, way back, and there’s probably other cultures throughout history that have seen us in this way. I love to do EMDR and IFS and combine the two. So my verbiage might be ifs heavy, but definitely other EMDR and that stands for and please Jump in, Ask me anything that feels interesting or that I should expand on. But EMDR stands for eye movement Desensitization and reprocessing. And so within that universe, there’s this thing called ego states, which in some ways is very similar to ifs. So that that kind of falls under the whole parts. But even if you think back to Freud, you know, he talked about parts. He talked about the id, ego and superego. So those are basically parts too. I’ll default to this guy. That’s great. His name is Robert Falconer. He has this book called the Others Within Us. And he talks about this probably originally again from history years and years, but he talks about the multiplicity of the mind and that within the mind we are multiple. So I think we could dive into this, um, within the field of therapy. You know, we like. We like to label things, or at least the field does. I know a lot of us kind of bulk at that. Um, and. And so we label that. Did you know? Oh, my God, you have multiple personalities. And again, the reality is, I think it’s more of like a spectrum kind of feel where we all have multiple personalities. And when we get way, way, way on the side where we are experiencing DID or dissociative identity disorder, it’s more that there’s this huge amnesia barrier. So we’ll go into a part and we’ll lose track of time and we’ll completely forget everything else about us. And then we’ll go to another, what they call alter, and then forget everything. So the alters won’t even know each other at times. And it’ll be really like, you know, I’m one person. At some point in time, something will happen. I’m totally switch my personality. I’m not talking about that when I talk about parts. I’m talking about if we all go down inside of ourselves, we could start hearing like we have these different voices. And maybe it’s not specifically a voice. Maybe it’s more a felt sense within our body somewhere. Or maybe it’s more. We could dive into pictures that are available to us. You know, internal pictures. And Jung talks about archetypes. So maybe these are archetypes or you know, the masks that we wear every day and everyday life. But we have these, these parts of us. And sometimes they don’t get along, sometimes they disagree with each other. Sometimes one part wants one thing and it pulls us here. And then another part wants something else and it pulls us there. So when we talk about parts, it’s really about getting a deeper Understanding and appreciation of our own uniqueness and the uniqueness of these beings that kind of live within us. That’s my definition of parts.
Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah, no, I just love to hear people how they can conceptualize, you know, their work and themselves. So maybe talk a little bit, just personalize it for you. So you were in the situation in schools. It was one year. And that certainly resonates with one of my first jobs. You know, when I was a therapeutic caseworker, you’d think I was 20 something, you know, bright eyed and bushy tailed. And it was one year of doing that work and therapeutic foster care casework where I kind of told myself I can’t work with kids anymore. And I haven’t for, you know, nearly 20 years. Which I started doing that recently. But I’m just wondering what, what was coming up for you then? What parts or what things or themes?
Speaker B: So it was my first job. I was there for two years. I was feeling this urgency, which I guess now we could look at a part or, you know, an element within that that wasn’t my true core self. But this urgency of I need a job, you know, I’m out of, out of my master’s degree program. And I had some jobs prior to the master’s degree program which were not too fulfilling and didn’t feel really like this is what I want to be doing, but this after going for my degree, this was something I wanted to be doing. And I was trained with elementary school kids, so I didn’t know that much about high school kids at the time other than I had this really wonderful person who was my supervisor for my internship and she said people are people. You know, it’s, they’re a little bit bigger in body, but they’re, they’re people, People are people and they’re just bigger kids. And, and of course developmentally there’s, there’s definite shifts that go on, but it was the only job I could get at that point because it’s hard to get a school job right out of school. And it was a lot of money at the time. It was like $31,000. And I was like, oh my God, I’m rich. And this was like, this was like 2000.
Speaker A: So you’re a school counselor, like a guidance counselor?
Speaker B: Yes, but you’re not going to get in trouble. I’m going to say something naughty. God, I talk in circles. So please focus me because I’m going to start this story and I promise I’ll get back to my point. But I’m Going to talk a little bit about something larger and then come back to it. When you came on my podcast, we spoke about burnout, and we spoke about how burnout is a body reaction, which is really like some wisdom, right? It’s a part telling us some wisdom. And there’s usually a bigger, broader kind of cultural element or element within our lives or within our jobs or within our fields that we’re responding to in some way. So I would say that with this job, I was a little bit naive, and I went in not really knowing a lot about school politics. I think I was really sheltered from that when I was the intern, and it was really about just helping the children. But I got a big crash course in school politics in this job. And so it was a guidance counselor. And they did want me to talk about colleges with the kids, which I didn’t really have any desire to do. But again, it’s $30,000. This is amazing. Nice school campus, too. But what really happened was there was politics where they were trying to get the guy out of the role that was there before me. And so there was concerns about him. And instead of doing it another way, they said, well, if we change the job title, we could get him out and put him back in a teacher role. And so they hired me as a school adjustment counselor. And so that was my title because I had done my internship with a school adjustment counselor, and I was interested in, like, oh, school social worker. That sounds amazing. So they hired me under the guise of. You’re a school adjustment counselor or. Yeah, it was actually. That was a title. Um, but it was really, I think, primarily to do the college counseling. And so it already set me up in this weird dynamic with the other teachers. And. And this teacher was still in the school. And it also kind of showed me how, as a school counselor, my experience. So. So I won’t say everybody’s, but my experience was it’s not really about counseling that that’s a sliver of what you’re doing. You’re really the politician in the school that has to make everybody happy. And a lot of times I found schools don’t appear to care a lot about kids mental health. They’re mentally healthy, great. But generally, they’re caring a lot more about money, a lot more about funding, a lot more about keeping the school afloat because they’re sinking, and about test scores and about keeping parents happy. And then if the kids are happy, that’s. That’s kind of. First it’s the principals, then it’s like, maybe the teachers, parents are kind of on the same line, and then way down low is the students. And I wanted to be careful kind of coming on this podcast with you as I was thinking about it and talking about it, because I think what happened was back then and even now, I think I have a part that’s a real kind of social justice part that comes up and then starts speaking. And that part would be happy to spend hours telling you about all of its feelings about my situation, but then also the situation of a lot of public school systems and what they’re going through today, and some of the just very disturbing things that happen, especially to kids that are mentally ill, struggling, have learning disabilities that don’t quite fit into the system. This part has done a lot of reading about, you know, how schools have kind of established themselves. And so I don’t want that part to just take over, but as we’re talking about parts, I want to name that there’s this social justice part that has a lot of anger about what I witnessed those six years.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I almost think of it like when I think of myself in that casework role when I was 25. 20. Was I. Maybe I was 24. Just. Yeah, almost 20 years ago. And, you know, in a way, I know this podcast can reach other younger clinicians or people in these younger roles who really have a desire to help children or to help the people that they’re working with. And so it’s like, I feel this duty in some way. So that part comes strong in me, too, where I’m just like, you know, I have this duty where I feel I don’t want people to go through that. I don’t want that for the upcoming clinicians. I don’t want that for the kids that are in these systems. And I work in a system in a school now as a contract worker.
Speaker B: So now you’re a little bit protected because you’re a contract worker.
Speaker A: But.
Speaker B: But I’m sure you still see a lot of this out of that.
Speaker A: I see a lot of. Yeah, the. The fallout from the system. Right. Like, the system. You know, a lot of people feel like that cog in. In the machine in a lot of ways.
Speaker B: And I. I had a fellow. What’s his name? But. But there was a fellow counselor that I worked with in one of the systems, and he was a nice guy, and in some ways, he treated me like he was like a mentor to me. And he said, david, you just got to get it in your head. We are a cog in the system. We are just a cog. And I smiled and nodded into my head. I’m like, I’m not a cog. I don’t want to be a cog. But, you know, maybe there’s some truth in that.
Speaker A: Yeah. And. And I think the anger. So the, you know, whatever, however you conceptualize the angry part or that part of you that feels that sense of injustice for being within these systems, for the person, the part of yourself that wanted to help. And that’s. That’s what I struggle with, and that’s what I hear from other therapists, is like that beautiful part of them that wanted to help had to go away. They had to really hide because it couldn’t be available.
Speaker B: See, mine was different, and I appreciate what you’re saying, and I definitely could see that mine wanted to run. Mine wanted to run and find another, which is similar. It wanted to find another way to do it. It was like, I’m not giving up yet. And so I went back to it for a master’s in social work at that point. And that felt really good because now all of a sudden, I had classes that were not only about individual therapy, but it was also about the macro environment and learning a little bit more. A little. I’m not an expert, but learning a little bit more about policy and politics and, you know, the government. But when you talk about that hopeless part, you know, what comes up for me is I feel that too, you know, and I definitely. I have other parts that want to fight it and, or deny it, because I don’t want to be hopeless. If I’m sitting with my client, I want to lean into hope and not hopelessness. But whether it’s the school, political terrible environment in the air within the school system, or if it’s social work and counseling and the insurance companies and some of the politics around that, or even just, I think, on a more and more macro scale, and not to be a total downer here, but my hopeless part is just going nuts, is the political environment that we find ourselves in. And I saw somewhere that Trump was slashing words, right? Like, what a ******* *******. Sorry, you could edit that out if you want, but probably AI is listening to me, and I’m going to be jailed later today. That Trump is, you know, slashing words like, women, like, you can’t. You shouldn’t say woman. And. And mental health. Shouldn’t say mental health. That’s, That’s. That’s. That’s right up there, I guess, with, you know, DEI and adversity. And so it’s it’s very scary times and I think it’s so important to hold on to hope. But you know, it may be a very connected thing to this burnout is, you know, this other part of hopelessness. They, they kind of seem to me to go together.
Speaker A: Definitely. I’m just breathing that in for a second and I’m kind of connecting. What you said before about like, you know, that part felt like it had to hide. And I guess you’re right. Like when I moved away from foster care, I, I went into my doctoral program. Right. So similar process. I was like, oh, I can’t do this kind of social work or social justice work. And that’s kind, that’s what I conceptualize what school counselors do as well. It’s, I think it’s in the realm of social work within systems.
Speaker B: I, I, I found, and again, this is my angry part. I found this more politician.
Speaker A: Got it. Yeah, yeah. Yes, I could totally see that. But maybe like what I conceptualize it, what it should be is somewhat of.
Speaker B: I’ll get behind that. Yes.
Speaker A: And also I felt that way in doing foster care casework. I should be in that role where I’m helping kids.
Speaker B: But you have to go against the system, right. You have to go against the country. And the history of the country, which is some of the history of the country is that poverty is a personal failing. Right. It’s that motto that if you’re poor it’s because you didn’t pick yourself up enough and you were lazy or whatever. And so being in that role, which I was too, as an in home therapist, you’re also dealing with people who have been beat down by a system that has cause a lot of shame and sometimes internal shame within those people.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I, you know, kind of going back to that theme of like running or escaping the work and trying to like. No, like there’s that part in me that, that wants to access this hope, that wants to see this change in the world, that believes that it’s possible and believes that I can help to facilitate that change. That part wants to still do the work. Right. So that part runs to like me, for me, complete the doctoral program for you, get your lcsw. You have a lcsw.
Speaker B: Yes, LICSW in Massachusetts.
Speaker A: Yeah, similar, Same thing. Yeah, similar, just different. Different little letters. Yeah, big letters. Sorry, those are big letters. Let me put big letters. Capital, capital, capital. Yes. So I think it has us do there. And I see that in therapists as well who talk to me like maybe I should get a certification In EMDR or ifs or because I can’t do this regular therapy thing or I can’t do this other thing. So we want to run to figure out how we can do the work. When I think if we’re looking at that macro level right at the system, it’s, I think, a reaction that we’re having to the places that we’re in.
Speaker B: Yes and no. Yes and no. I guess I agree with you. And there’s a part of me that’s like, oh, maybe there’s a nuance and maybe it’s a difference in our perception. I think it depends really what these students or young people in our field or new workers, what they’re really wanting out of their careers, if they’re really wanting to do social justice work and helping out with society. 100%, I agree with you. I think you’re absolutely correct. If they’re really wanting to do. I got another mad part here or annoyed part. And I will say, too, that in ifs, what they say is speak for your parts, not from your parts. So I’m trying to, like, acknowledge my parts and hear them, but I’m not, like, maybe a little bit, but. But I’m not. I don’t think. Hopefully I’m not blended with them as much as just giving them a little bit of a platform and translating for them. That’s a little bit about ifs, but. But. So I guess, yeah. What I disagree with is that if somebody really, really is passionate about doing individual therapy and trauma therapy with their clients, then I don’t think the master degree programs, at least the ones that I’m aware of, really do that justice. I think there’s so limited conversation about even trauma and relationship and so much else that they would say they need to teach students, maybe that’s right, maybe that’s wrong. But there’s some core elements that I really feel they’re lacking. That I feel if somebody was to learn EMDR or IFS or even ifs informed emdr, it could really help them be a therapist in a way that just to my system feels so much deeper and so much more effective and authentic. And there’s a real kind of intimate relationship that you’re able to have when you’re looking at a client and what they’re bringing with a certain kind of map or a certain kind of vantage point. So I definitely feel that, you know, for some, and this might not be an answer for burnout, but for some who are not feeling like, I wish I could be more effective or this Just isn’t feeling right to me. I feel that IFS and foreign DMDR has really helped me understand things and see an inner landscape that I was just blind to before then.
Speaker A: Yeah. So relating that perhaps to, like, if a clinician, let’s say they’re burned out, they’re a therapist, and they want to integrate this modality or do this modality, is that. Are you kind of saying that’s a way to do the work in a way that’s more sustainable? What would you say?
Speaker B: Yeah, well, I guess this is where I kind of definitely join with you and your wisdom and knowledge that. I think the first step is to really kind of get a better understanding of what’s burning you out. Like, what are. What are the parts inside of you that are bringing you to this space? And, you know, you said on my podcast, like, kind of what you do and. And maybe what we all do if we’re helping, working with somebody who is feeling burned out, is to really understand what are the factors that are going on inside of you as well. And. And where do they really desire to be, to go to? Where did their values kind of where is. Where are their values leading them? And if they were to be able to feel free of self judgment, feel free of the shame, to kind of really explore, you know, you have all of these options. You could stay, you could leave. What do you want and what do you feel you need? And then at that point, if they want to stay, and specifically if they want to stay and work with individuals doing trauma and that feels like a real passion and a real guide for them, then I would say, yeah, I would say that again, it’s personal, so, you know, it’s just my journey. But I would say that emdr ifs have really helped me feel more inspired, feel more hopeful, feel more like, wow, there could be real change in this deep level, which I never knew was possible. I mean, for me. And these were all things that I felt in the past, but I didn’t have the words and I wasn’t quite able to do it on my own. I feel that IFS has been a window for me to start talking about spirituality with clients. And that was just amazing. That was just this Godsent, like, yay. And not everybody wants to talk about spirituality, and we all talk about it in very different ways. So it doesn’t have to be God, it doesn’t have to be Jesus, but just this higher power that is within us that we could access and really that all of us, because I hate when people Go to me. And they’re like, you’re the, you’re the professional, I’m paying you the money. You have the answers. And it’s like, well, I am professional and you are paying me money. But I hate to tell you this, I don’t have the answers. I really don’t. When my job is to sit here with you, with compassion, with acceptance, and to be with you on the journey and to help you listen to the answers that are already inside of you. And those answers that are already inside of you, that’s your higher self that knows. And if you can’t hear that, then let’s figure out how we could listen to that and let’s figure out what’s getting in the way of that. But that kind of kernel, to me, that’s virtuality. That kernel is not only this higher force within them, but it connects to the higher force within all of us. And so that kind of language, I think was much more available to me with ifs and talking about what they call self energy. You know, then you’re talking about, now you’re bringing in a spiritual level when you’re talking about this energy, this self energy.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I hear from a lot of therapists who are what I call more end stage burnout, where I feel like, and this is, these are the words they’ll say, I don’t have anything left to give. I, I am really at capacity for giving. So if you look up human giver syndrome, all of that, they have come to the end of the theirselves. Most of the people I work with and listen to my podcast are female identifying. And I think we are just in a place in society where it’s, we’re constantly on, we’re constantly giving, constantly working. And so I hear that voice of them also saying like part, some people say, yes, I can. I do want to be in this work. I do want to continue to do this work. And I feel like emdr, I, I did some parts trading. I’m not part, I’m not ifs trained, but I’m, I was certified in em, I still am certified in emdr. And it was, it was such a transformational training for me to go through and to be an EMDR client as well, to really see that transformation that can happen for me to over a part of my burnout was I had panic attacks, driving, and so to be able to work through that with my EMDR therapist and find that I no longer have them. And I didn’t see that in My training, where I was taught pretty much cbt, manualized treatments was what the way I came up and learning in the early 2000s of how to do therapy, I do, I of course did some yalm. Part of my training was also processed, kind of wonderful training in college counseling centers, which I always said I wanted to get back to. And I never found that I really wanted to do some kind of group healing work. And I tried to do those things in my private practice, tried to launch them, but I really. It never happened.
Speaker B: Well, just as a little side note, I think that’s so beautiful. And I, I’m resonating because I’m like, yeah, I was there too. And again, I hope I don’t sound too negative here. I think there’s forces working against us in society when we try to do stuff like that. And for one example, and this really upsets me, I don’t take insurance. And there’s some decisions that insurances here in Massachusetts, maybe elsewhere do. One of them is that they will reimburse you less for couples work. You get paid less for couples work than you.
Speaker A: Makes no sense. I know.
Speaker B: And then for group work, it’s even harder to get that up and going. And so you know, what you’re talking about, from my understanding, therapeutically, especially for college age kids, is one of the best supports that you could possibly do for them to have their peers in a group supporting them because they listen to their peers, but there’s no money in it. And so that becomes a gateway in a way that we have to plow through. And it’s very hard. If I was going to do that, there’s definitely sacrifices that have to be made. So I just kind of commenting on what you’re saying and I want to hear more, but it just feels like that seems so beautiful. And I could just imagine some of the external pressures that were raining down on you as you were trying to do that.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that’s, I think for zooming out for other therapists, they want to do this transformational work, maybe doing emdr, doing ifs work, doing group therapy where they’re doing some process work and really having people get that group healing that I as an individual therapist cannot provide. I cannot provide a group of your peers to give you feedback and see you in a unique way. So I think again, I think being in these systems of insurance or whatever it is, it’s hard because I think when I talked to therapists, they saw themselves trying to find a way to work that worked for them that they felt like maybe all parts can be utilized in their work more. But they struggled really to find that and to have the energy and to have that hopefulness come through in their work. And so I think that’s. I’m just curious. So I’m segueing just because I know we’re closer to the end of our time now to think about therapist parts and maybe what parts from your book that is upcoming in November, right, that you talked about and that you notice for therapists that might be helpful as they’re navigating, if they’re going to stay in therapy, if they’re not going to stay in therapy, just to understand it.
Speaker B: I’m going to totally plagiarize now, plagiarize my network. Coming up in November. This is the first podcast I’m dropping this on. The latest was I heard it would be out November, early November 2025. And it’s called IFS Informed EMDR. And I got together with a whole bunch of other trainers and just masters in EMDR and ifs. And I just feel very lucky to have been part of the journey and really wanting to get it out to people. So this chapter is Annabelle McGoldrick. And you could look her up online. Her name is A N N A B E L. And then Nick McGoldrick, G O L, D R I C K. And she’s just so wise. And she’s out of Australia and she travels to, to England. And her chapter is the Role of Therapist Parts in Helping or Hindering Clients Healing. Contrasting EMDR Psychotherapy with an IFS Therapy Perspective. And so in this chapter, she says a lot of just really brilliant things. I think she’s a journalist. She used to be a journalist, writing this peace journal with her husband. And so what she came up with in her chapter, and then she talks about each one of them. She talks about worried parts that come up inside of the therapist, suicidal parts that come up. But suicidal parts, I think, are two things. One, we all have suicidal parts. I just want quit, you know, whether they’re loud, whether they’re not, to help make things a little bit, you know, less agonizing for us, but then also maybe worried parts that might come up around the suicidal parts of clients and how that activates us. We have the doubting parts, parts that doubt us, the insecure parts. And again, we don’t all have all of these, but just listen to them and see if any of them resonate with you. We have organized parts, fix it parts, dreading parts, bored parts, stuck Parts, impatient parts, judging parts turn away parts angry and frustrated parts perfectionist and getting it right parts approval seeking parts, self disclosing parts, rescuing caretaking trauma parts, dissociative parts, self like parts. Those are parts that we think are, you know, the self, but they’re really just have more of an energy of wanting to do something or change something as opposed to self which is just being burned out parts, tired parts. So those are, so those are some of the ones that she or all of the ones that she mentions in her chapter and each one has this beautiful paragraph of description and yeah, if you want. I’m just interested right now. Do you want me to read a little bit of what you wrote about burned out tired parts?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: All right. See what your thoughts here. And again, this is from the chapter of Annabelle McGoldrick and all the names have changed. You know, these are all protecting clients throughout the book. James had recently returned from holiday, but he still found it hard to not be triggered by his clients stories of pain, abuse and neglect. He felt burned by their stories, like it was happening to him. His supervisor helped him make the distinction between compassion and empathy. Although the two terms are used interchangeably, empathy is not quite not a quality of self for a reason. Empathy is more merging and feeling for the other person. Empathetic distress with distress emerging from the person providing the empathy. In contrast, compassion is feeling for and not feeling with the other. Compassion is more a sense of being a loving, caring witness. We can still feel for the other person and offer whatever help we can, but we are not adding our own distress and suffering to the situation. If the EMDR therapist is blended with their fix it rescuing or over empathizing parts, not only are they not resonating with the client, but they risk getting overwhelmed and suffering from empathy, fatigue and burnout. Hmm, yeah, that really seems to like fit your podcast and part and part about burnout.
Speaker A: Yeah, it’s just interesting. I wrote my dissertation on compassion satisfaction like many, many moons ago. And so empathy is this conduit for compassion satisfaction as well as compassion fatigue. So it’s a way we feel satisfaction from the work and how we feel drained. So it’s interesting like on opposite spectrums, how it could potentially be implicated and perhaps thinking of that connected compassion as a place where we can be versus taking that so much into our body, into our mind space. And that’s why I love the beauty of emdr. And when I learned the modality, I really truly felt like I could be the facilitator and the guide versus the therapist or the person that is, you know, helping to create this change for the client. I. I truly saw therapy. My role in therapy is truly the facilitator of your own process.
Speaker B: That’s exactly right. And. And that’s why, like, **** Schwartz, who created ifs, would say something like, you know, when he’s feeling he’s doing therapy the right way, he gets more energized by being in session. It’s like you become the vessel or the conduit, and you’re not really trying as hard or taking on the client’s burdens as like, your own, or having to fix or having to change. It’s just like, no, this is what it is. And I have the total faith that just by really being here, sitting with you and empathizing or being compassionate, there’s going to be some softening inside their system, and we’re just going to notice that together. And so it takes a lot of the pressure off.
Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. I wish we had time for more. I would just have to have you back on.
Speaker B: I guess I just have to come back. I’d be happy to.
Speaker A: You just have to come back and talk more about, you know, the book, especially as it’s coming out, maybe, you know, towards the Fall or something about. Yeah, and I think you’re talking about burnout and a summit coming out.
Speaker B: I have a book coming out and I have, you know, probably going to be trying to plug it a lot. So maybe at that point we could talk about the burnout that I might be currently experiencing. Hopefully not.
Speaker A: Hopefully that was my thing, I think the through line. So going back to what you had said at the beginning of. Is burnout something that we struggle with to a degree throughout our lives and our careers? And I think of it more as some. Somewhat of that, because I identify with that. I don’t feel like I have fully recovered from my burnout. And is that something that we face doing this kind of work, that we have to toggle between that counterbalance and not balance, but the counterbalance of the work and how. What resources that we need for ourselves at different parts of our lives based on our home life, based on our work life, based on whatever events are happening in the world, like right now, like, yeah, we need. We need a lot more counterbalance in our work due to the distress that we are feeling in the world, especially in the U.S. i have, you know, people who listen to this in multiple countries as, you know, as a podcaster, but especially in the U.S. i think we’re seeing that so.
Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And I. And I think it definitely. Other places are feeling that too. You know, it’s. It’s happening in the US but it’s happening and in so many places, and a lot of places are watching the US Perhaps with horror like we are. Yeah, that really resonates with me that I think, again, you know, kind of leave the audience that your burnout does not mean you’re broken. It does not mean anything is wrong with you. In fact, it means that your body is doing exactly what it’s supposed to be doing, and it’s giving you a message, and it’s telling you that within this field, there is a lot that will burn us out. I mean, it’s just if your eyes are open and you see the struggling, you see the suffering, how can you not be burned out to some degree? So it’s just. It’s. It’s this message of, what do you need in that moment to really find that balance?
Speaker A: Yeah. Love it. Well, where can people reach out if they would like to connect with you?
Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I have my website, www.empoweredthroughcompassion.com. i have a podcast of the same name, so feel free to check me out. Look me up. It was a pleasure being here with you. It’s so nice talking about this stuff. It’s so relevant.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. Well, that’s what I live and breathe in my burnout space. But, yeah, I think right now especially. So. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast today, and I know I’ll connect with you soon.
Speaker B: Sounds great. My pleasure.
