Speaker 0 00:00:01 Full recovery from concussion is possible. I’m gonna say it again. Full recovery from concussion is possible. That’s what my guest is telling us today. Melanie vine Hoen is a wonderful survivor from the Netherlands that has started her own course and website dedicated to helping folks who survived a concussion.
Speaker 0 00:00:32 She talks about her story and not recovering in the normal timeframe that doctors tell you, you should recover from. She studied cutting edge research and even has our own podcast dedicated to helping survivors find research information and tools to recover from concussion. Some of the biggest takeaways from this episodes were don’t wait and see, see someone right away. If your symptoms are prolonged. And that’s one thing I can say. I’ve been hearing more and more from researchers, survivors that we don’t need to wait with symptoms. We can move forward. We can keep finding people who will help us. And that was her second takeaway, really? That recovery’s possible. She discussed the research of Dr. McCray, who I’m gonna look into because he told her that recovery is 100% possible. So I’m very encouraged to hear some of these reports that she’s been saying. So I’m very encouraged to hear all of this and have you listen to this inspiring survivor. Hi everyone. Welcome to the TBI therapist podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Jen, where we explore the heart of brain injury. Hi, Melanie. Welcome to the TBI therapist podcast. It’s so great to have you.
Speaker 3 00:02:15 Thank you. I’m really happy to be here.
Speaker 0 00:02:18 Awesome. And just let us know where you’re joining us from.
Speaker 3 00:02:22 I’m joining you from the Netherlands.
Speaker 0 00:02:25 Wonderful, wonderful. So, Melanie, I’m gonna ask you a question that I’ve changed up a little bit here and there, but what is one thing about concussion that no one tells you?
Speaker 3 00:02:38 Well, to me, it’s the thing that always stood out is the psychological effects that concussions have. It’s something that never came up in any of the medical conversations I’ve had with medical professionals. It’s something for sure that the people surrounding me, uh, knew nothing about. And it’s something that I didn’t expect at all. So while all of these psychological effects were going on, because they start right, the moment that you’re experiencing symptoms, they start coming into your life. Um, I discovered that very late, the, the, the state of my mental health actually. So that’s the one thing that comes up for me that I think people don’t know. And don’t talk about a lot. Mm.
Speaker 0 00:03:36 Yeah. And I, I think it’s just such an important point to highlight for everybody, because number one, there’s stigma for mental health concerns. Still, we just need to name that the stigma is out there. And I just think there’s a lack of education regarding how intertwined mental and physical health is, especially in concussion recovery. So I don’t think we can have a conversation about concussion recovery without talking about mental health symptoms at all. It’s part of it. It’s just part of it.
Speaker 3 00:04:06 Completely agree. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:04:09 And you, you said I was, I was just digging into something you said about, like, you noticed it later, like you didn’t realize it until later. So can you speak a little bit to that?
Speaker 3 00:04:18 Yes. Yeah. So, um, after I sustained my concussion, I first had like one and a half weeks of no symptoms at all. And then all of the symptoms just started hitting me, no pun intended. And EV every time, every week that passed, I felt that more and more symptoms were, um, were coming over me. That was the way it felt. And more and more, it started taking over my life. And more and more, I started to see myself as the girl with the concussion instead of the young woman starting her career, or, um, just a happy person I had been before. I just, I just started seeing myself more and more as their girl with the concussion and that defined my identity. But in this, at the same time, also my life started crumbling. I start, I start started seeing things slipping away from me like my career.
Speaker 3 00:05:19 It wasn’t something that I found important anymore that much, um, because I was struggling every day to get out of bed even, or to get dressed. And, but also for example, friends’ lives. It was hard for me to even hear sounds, let alone ask, ask someone how they were doing, but that meant that you get isolated because you can’t really invest in, in relationships anymore. You can’t invest in your career. Everything that’s, everything really is influenced by a broken brain. I always say that it’s the center of your life, your, your, your brain. And when it doesn’t work anymore, it’s like this whole, it, it just, your whole life doesn’t work anymore. It, it is not harder than that. Actually. It’s very easy to imagine how it works. If that breaks down.
Speaker 0 00:06:17 Yeah. I’ve often thought about what would it be like if, you know, like a symphony didn’t have a conductor and it was just like, everything was playing at one time or they didn’t know when they were supposed to start and end. Yes. And it just sounds like chaos.
Speaker 3 00:06:36 Exactly. That’s, that’s one part of it. And the other part of it is that also your, your brain of course, is the part where you experience your emotions and your passions and everything that drives you in life. But, uh, aside from ha not having a conductor anymore, also you’re losing grip on all the things that you love before the person you were, and you get all the, these questions about life and how and why it matters. And what’s the sense of everything that’s still happening to you anymore. And yeah, those, those are all of those kinds, uh, questions that I started to experience and to that were popping up in my head. And it was only very late that I experienced that. I noticed that my thoughts were very depressive and that I was, um, very negative about my outlook on life, about hope or positivity. All those things had really slipped away from me because I wasn’t aware of all those mental, psychological side effects of my concussion.
Speaker 0 00:07:50 Yeah. And, and maybe we can go back and you can just give me a little, a mini snapshot into your concussion story. And mm-hmm, <affirmative> maybe when that, when you notice that kind of cloud of depression kind of settling in at that point.
Speaker 3 00:08:06 Yes. Yeah. So my concussion happened in 2012 when I fell with my fell off my bike. Um, and, um, it was a traffic accident, but it was one sided. So I, I coasted myself essentially. Uh, it was just plain daylight, no alcohol involved. People always ask me that, but I just, uh, drove home from work. And, uh, an accident happened with my, uh, basket that was in front of my bike. And, um, yeah, it was a very strange experience when it happened. And, uh, I even wasn’t aware that I could sustain a concussion at that moment because I didn’t hit my head. So I landed on my hands and my feet. And then my brain essentially smashed into my skull and I made a whiplash movement and a lot of sensations followed after that. So I didn’t black out, but I couldn’t see anymore. I could hear noises, but I couldn’t understand words.
Speaker 3 00:09:08 I heard a loud ringing in my ears. Um, I saw this like golden rain trickling in my vision. A lot of strange experiences happened and still afterward, I just wanted to drive straight home, uh, and go to bed sleep. And the next day I, I thought like it was a nightmare. So I didn’t even think to stand still. And I didn’t even think about a concussion until one and a half weeks later when I started experiencing symptoms. Uh, which for me were the ones, uh, like, uh, I couldn’t concentrate on work. I couldn’t stand the lights if my, uh, from my monitor on my desk of the, of those kinds of symptoms. Um, can you help me remember your question again? You asked me about the origin of my concussion and then,
Speaker 0 00:10:02 Yeah. So just kind of the, uh, little background of the story, and then maybe when you first notice that those, those sad thoughts or the depression kind of creeping into what you were experiencing.
Speaker 3 00:10:13 Yeah. Yeah. So after that a whole, while I was struggling to find my way, so the first time I went to a doctor and went to my GP and he asked, he advised me to rest. And by rest, he explained that I should, uh, avoid all kinds of stimuli. So tell my work that I wouldn’t come in. Don’t, don’t put my laptop, don’t be on my phone. Um, and, uh, maybe read a book, but be in a dark room. It was the classic old advice that shouldn’t be given anymore and, right, right, right. Yeah. And, um, that already started isolation, of course. And, um, also if you’re doing such, if you’re following such, uh, advice, you already devoid yourself of all the things that you like to do. And, um, that’s never a good, uh, position to be in, so then not right away. But of course I wasn’t feeling happy, but I was overall, I was especially, I was confused, uh, about what was happening to me.
Speaker 3 00:11:19 I never had experienced such a thing, but it was months later. And even two years later that I was experiencing all of those depressive thoughts and that I found myself thinking that there was no use that I was wondering about what the, what the point was of living. And even at one moment, I was, uh, I found myself overthinking death. Um, I clearly remember this thought, uh, this train of thought when I was having it, how my room was at the moment. It was so it’s like a whole slow motion. Um, at that moment, as I was thinking about ending my life. And it was actually the turning point in my recovery, because at that moment, because I was depressed, I couldn’t feel so I was numbed and I couldn’t feel how sad normally these thoughts would’ve made me, I as a healthy person. I would’ve never thought about ending my life, but there, I was thinking about how I would do that.
Speaker 3 00:12:34 And then I thought, okay, now I realize that there are two real realities possible because the old me never thought about that. And I was happy. And here I am thinking about that. And I feel like there’s no way out with that. That will be the only thing that will help me get out of this mess. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and that’s how I realized that there sh there is a PO possibility to feel happy again, because I have felt happy before and I felt love. And, um, that’s when I decided that I would do anything to find a way out, because I already knew what rock bottom looked like, and I didn’t want to sink any lower.
Speaker 0 00:13:17 Oh, well, thank you for sharing that. I’m sure that a lot of people have felt that way. And I’ve heard similar thoughts, I think in people’s darkest moments of their brain injury. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and there’s so much, I think why that happens because you isolate people. I think the pandemic has really shown us what isolation can do. We are not meant to be isolated.
Speaker 3 00:13:39 Nope.
Speaker 0 00:13:39 So humans really need to be with other humans. It’s so important for our mental health, for our physical health. There’s, there’s so many reasons why we need to be with other people. Yeah. So the, the previous advice of stay in the dark room, you know, limit your contact with people is really bad advice. And I think while meaning doctors just didn’t know what they didn’t know, or they weren’t educated at the time and to their credit possibly, you know, guidelines did change mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I think just, and not everyone knows that to keep up on guidelines with concussion, any professionals or any friends, or, you know, doesn’t have to be a professional necessarily. I know this,
Speaker 3 00:14:19 No. Um, yes. I only saw them later on. So back at that Mo after that moment, I realized that something had to change, but I was still very, I was very ashamed of my feelings. I was very ashamed of the state of my life and of my mental health. I had not talked with, uh, loved ones about it. I had hidden, um, almost all of it. And at that moment I felt that I had to clean up my own mess, which I don’t recommend to any of the listeners because it’s not, we have, we have loved ones to support us. And yeah, that’s one of the things, if I could go back, I would change. I would call someone and I would try to speak with a psychologist. And, but that back then, I, the one thing I could think of also, the one thing I could do with my brain was read.
Speaker 3 00:15:20 So I went to the library and I, uh, found books about trauma, uh, recovery from trauma recovery, from brain injury about neuroplasticity, all of these kinds of things I started to read about. And that’s when I found hope and hope is the thing that I think pulled me through because suddenly, well, not suddenly, finally I had perspective something I could really reach for. I saw examples of people who had recovered. I saw people who had experienced such such more, uh, how do you say that in English way, deeper, intense trauma than I had experienced. Right. And they had been able to turn that around and live a fulfilling life after that. And they described that they are happier and more joyful and have a more meaningful life after having had such experiences that I couldn’t even imagine. So that gave me power and hope to work towards something. And, um, yeah, that’s the thing I never let go of.
Speaker 0 00:16:37 That’s awesome.
Speaker 3 00:16:39 Hmm.
Speaker 0 00:16:41 Yeah. So I’m I wanna go back that’s okay. I do this. Yes, of course. <laugh> so you talked a little bit about, about feeling a sense of shame regarding your injury that you didn’t wanna tell anyone you didn’t wanna let people in. And what I think shame does is it makes us hide and it’s, it’s really scared of that vulnerability of meeting people and letting people in. So maybe talk about what helped you kind of, I, I talk about like zing through this shame clouds, how can we zap through them and move through them? What helped you get through that piece?
Speaker 3 00:17:24 B Renee brown <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:17:25 Yes, of course. <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:17:28 There’s one answer
Speaker 0 00:17:29 Possible. <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:17:31 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:17:32 Her research is, and that’s, I’m kind of paraphrasing a little of her research there about shame and vulnerability. Right? Go ahead. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:17:38 Yeah. She writes, I believe that I can quote a Letterly, but uh, shame can stand being spoken out, being shared because once you share about shame, it just vaporizes. And, um, I, I dunno if that’s true, like in the moment, but yes. If shame just wants to be kept to, to itself. And, um, I never, I really never, before reading her book, the, um, uh, I never much and reading her book I’ve been in, I discover it that I had been in this magic ring of shame and the only way out was to share about it and through her stories, but also, um, reading more about, um, Buddhism and more about wholehearted living from her. But also, um, in Buddhism, you can also read about a lot about compassion and, uh, learn a lot about compassion and empathy and all of these really beautiful concepts that came to life for me when I started practicing them, because then I discovered that I was just on my way.
Speaker 3 00:19:02 I tried my best and I can share my story so that others can learn from it. And that’s it. I, there’s no reason for me to withhold anything anymore. I’m, I’m not sharing with you the moments that were so shameful for me before, but now they are just, for me, they are things that I can share with others so that they don’t feel that alone as I did. That’s the most important thing for me. And I think sharing about the things that, that we go through. Sometimes it’s really hard when we’re still in the middle of it. Um, so it’s easier for me now, but still, I, I feel that it isn’t normal to talk about these things. I don’t have an issue with it anymore. I don’t feel shame, but not everyone wants to hear it because it makes you feel feelable as well. It it’s very close to everyone’s heart. When you talk about this thing, these things, some people really don’t like that. So it’s very important to choose who you talk to when you are sharing things that you have that are, that are really intense for you.
Speaker 0 00:20:24 Did you find that there were certain people that you could share with what you were struggling with when you were kind of in the midst of the messy middle, as bene would say <laugh> were those PE were and some people maybe that you couldn’t.
Speaker 3 00:20:37 Yes. Uh, yes, of course. I think, uh, we all have that. And I, I had some people who I could share with who, who I could, well, you could, you can share with someone, but the, the question is how do they respond? So I could share with everyone, but then the ones who really connected with me on that are the persons who are now closest to me because you’ve been through something that’s so deep that that makes a connection that’s really, really meaningful. Um, and sometimes also changes those people. Um, and that’s, that’s, that’s a beautiful, beautiful thing too, to go through that together.
Speaker 0 00:21:16 I think what you’re touching, touching on here is community and the importance of community yeah. In recovery. And I don’t know what it’s like there, I don’t know what, in, in your country, what kind of supports are available for folks. And did you lean into the brain injury community or the concussion community in your area? Was that helpful?
Speaker 3 00:21:37 Well, I didn’t, uh, that’s one of the things that I now advise people to do really. Okay. Because community and support from people who have experienced the same is just invaluable. Uh, but in the end, I, I, I did go through to, uh, psychologists and that helped me immensely. So that’s one thing that I always advise people you can’t visit enough psychologists really, you will always get something out of it. So, yeah.
Speaker 0 00:22:04 Yes. I, and I, I believe that as well. And I practice what I preach. I see somebody too. Yes. Super into my house.
Speaker 3 00:22:12 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:22:12 Especially if you’re doing emotional work. So I always tell my healers, my helpers, you know, people are doing like this kind of emotional laboring work.
Speaker 3 00:22:20 Mm-hmm
Speaker 0 00:22:20 <affirmative> you got stuff you gotta work out cuz it’s vulnerable. Of course.
Speaker 3 00:22:23 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:22:27 Wonderful. Well, I’m wondering if you can share with the listeners, maybe two or three tips that or insights, they don’t have to be tips. It could be just like insights, things that you’ve learned that are kind of the most important things that you’ve found as a survivor of a concussion.
Speaker 3 00:22:46 Yeah. So, uh, one of the first things that came very early in the pro uh, process that I wanna share with people is that don’t wait and see for doctors or professionals or anyone you respect to fix your concussion for you. So it could be that they do, but it could, could also very well be that they don’t or that they don’t know really what to do with you, especially if you’ve had your concussion for a while already. And if you experience that, it’s so important to follow your gut, that there could be something more that you could be doing and that you get toward more of an active recovery instead of this weight and see very passive way of approaching recovery. Um, it’s something that really delays your recovery in the end. And that’s a lesson that I, uh, pay dearly for. So that’s one that I wanna share.
Speaker 3 00:23:48 And also if you’re suffering from post concussion syndrome. So like I did so like the, I think the jury is still out on when it’s officially post-concusion syndrome after concussion between two weeks or three months after injury. Uh, if you haven’t recovered, doesn’t really matter. But if you hear that you have post concussion syndrome or you self-diagnose, that it’s so important not to get paralyzed by the word syndrome. I, I did that and it feels like syndrome is something like forever, right? It feels heavy. But in fact, it isn’t anything different than having a concussion that hasn’t cleared up yet. But tomorrow doesn’t have to look like today and what you do today matters. That’s something I, so I fully recovered after six years after doctors told me that I would never recover that my brain damage was too was being on repair. And still I recovered because in the end I figured that I didn’t accept that life, that my, in which my brain was broken and I couldn’t cha chase any of my dreams.
Speaker 3 00:25:01 And I started studying and researching and experimenting. I experimented so much of myself, but in the end I found that what I do today really matters for tomorrow, you can do, you can do things that hinder your recovery. You can do things that help your recovery, and you can do things that help you feel safe and secure to experiment and to try things. And you could do things to really help yourself feel lousy and feel your feel like, like, I felt like the concussion girl, that was my identity. But if I was saying that to myself all the time, I wasn’t changing my future for the positive. So that’s something that I really wanna share.
Speaker 0 00:25:50 Wonderful. And was all of your recovery and how you recovered, was that all self study or did you see other folks, other providers, centers? Mm-hmm <affirmative> what would it that look like for you?
Speaker 3 00:26:05 Well, I recently read a sentence. I completely agree. There’s no such thing as self made <laugh> so yeah. Um, I’ve had help of course, um, visit any concussion or brain injury centers. But I had this psychologist later on, I have BNE brown. I had, um, psychiatrist from England who wrote a book. I read his book about trauma recovery. So I read a lot of books. A lot of people influenced me mm-hmm <affirmative>. And also right at the start of my recovery, I went to a recovery program, um, rehabilitation that wasn’t for brain injury. It was for people who had, uh, heard from the doctors that they couldn’t be helped anymore. Yeah. All those people in the gray area that was not, uh, a rehabilitation center in which I learned how to cure my concussion, but I learned how to cope with adversity and uncertainty. So those were like more psychological coping tools.
Speaker 3 00:27:11 Those were those kind of things. But my real recovery only happened like three to four years after injury. So I, I started learning and my, most of my recovery happened in the final year before I completely recovered. So five years after injury, which is way beyond the, the statute of limitations, a statute of limitations. I would say the doctors told me that after two years now further recovery was possible, which is very outdated knowledge. It is a knowledge, but so most of my recovery came from studying and researching and experimenting so much studying patients cases as well that I could find. And then I build out all of that. And after so many years, uh, I felt that things were changing for me after six years, six and a half years, actually I finally, one day I woke up and I thought it it’s gone, it’s it really is gone. I don’t feel any of those symptoms anymore. Wow. And now that’s been already more than two years. Uh, so I, I really know it’s gone <laugh> because I never had it anymore.
Speaker 0 00:28:26 Wow. Wow. That’s wonderful.
Speaker 3 00:28:29 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:28:30 That’s wonderful. Well, gonna ask you kind of, we’re gonna into the wrap up around where I ask you just a couple of questions at the end, if that’s okay. Yes. So one of them is just a fun question and lets us know a little bit about who you are. Uh, what is your favorite holiday food <laugh> who does it remind you of?
Speaker 3 00:28:52 That’s a wonderful question. Holiday food. So we as Dutch people are a bit different than the Americans, right?
Speaker 0 00:29:02 <laugh> yeah. That’s why I wanna know because everyone is different with their holiday food. Right.
Speaker 3 00:29:06 You are very good at celebrating holidays. Let me think. Okay. The one thing that I think about is, um, when I was a child and at Christmas, uh, on Christmas Eve, actually we would eat, oh, how am I going to translate this?
Speaker 0 00:29:24 Oh, it’s fine. You can just try your best. What do they look like?
Speaker 3 00:29:29 I think the little translation would be sausage with spots. Really. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:29:34 Interesting.
Speaker 3 00:29:35 So, um, it’s like sausage from, how do you call that? The, the guy who really kills the animals,
Speaker 0 00:29:44 The butcher
Speaker 3 00:29:45 Butcher, sorry. Yes. I’m sorry. Fegan <laugh> um, um, but
Speaker 0 00:29:52 On a vegan podcast,
Speaker 3 00:29:54 No
Speaker 0 00:29:58 Good stuff comes out. It’s why I love this question.
Speaker 3 00:30:01 Yeah. It, it was juicy too. So, um, my mom would get these sausages from the butcher and then they would be in this, this, this cooking pan. And, um, we would have bread from the bakery and, uh, which was all luxury. Like normally we wouldn’t go to the butcher and to the very, just to the supermarket and then you would get the bread and put the sausage on the bread and put some of the gravy on it. And then I was just happy as a child. It remember, it reminds me of being on the table with my grandparents and it was something that they already did when they were children. So, okay. It’s just a happy memory, but it’s a really, it’s not even Dutch. I don’t think most Dutch people know it it’s really something from our family. So it’s just a
Speaker 0 00:30:49 Family, a family tradition, right? Yeah. Yeah. And we have those two in my family where we just like, I make Spanish cope eyes. I talked about another podcast, which is a Greek dish that I make for Christmas and I have no Greek heritage. So it’s random
Speaker 3 00:31:05 <laugh> but it’s something that gets ingrained in your family tradition. Right, right,
Speaker 0 00:31:09 Right.
Speaker 3 00:31:10 Yeah. Yeah. And then it reminds you like now it’s Christmas
Speaker 0 00:31:14 <laugh> yes. Yes. I love those things.
Speaker 3 00:31:17 Yes. That’s wonderful.
Speaker 0 00:31:19 So maybe a more brain injury related question. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so when we talked a little bit, a little about, about in the pre-interview that you’re nearly 10 years post brain injury this year.
Speaker 3 00:31:30 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:31:31 And I was wondering what you, can, you, what you would’ve wanted to tell your yourself when you were maybe first injured or before you were injured, any words of wisdom?
Speaker 3 00:31:43 Mm. You really are not alone in what you’re experiencing and you are not doing anything wrong for not having recovered yet. So that’s the one thing that I felt all the time that I was doing something wrong and I felt so alone in my recovery process. And I know that a lot of you are feeling this as well. And, um, also if you’ve been visiting a lot of doctors and they haven’t been able to help you, it doesn’t mean that you are doing anything wrong. It just means that they don’t have access to the knowledge, the most recent knowledge about what is possible yesterday. Um, I talked with professor McCray. It’s a hard name professor McCray from, uh, from the yes, as well. I interviewed him from my podcast and, um, I asked him he’s one of the lead, uh, lead researchers in two very big, um, traumatic brain injury studies in the us. And I asked him, what do you say if I say there’s hope for concussion recovery and his answer was 100% and awesome.
Speaker 3 00:32:55 Yeah. So that’s the one thing that I wanna share. And the doctors who possibly tell you that it is impossible, or that you should just rest or go home. Like you feel, you feel like you leave their offices empty handed, they just don’t have access to the kind of knowledge that professor McCray has, uh, access to, for example. So is there room for improvement? There’s a lot of room for improvement. There’s so much that you can do. And, um, that’s good. That’s a good thing. That doesn’t mean that you are doing anything wrong. It just means that you need to learn how to deal with this, this, this challenge that you have been given this road that you’ve been put up, however you wanna say it, whatever has been happening to you. Um, there’s, there’s really a lot that you can do. And that’s actually also why I created Liana.
Speaker 3 00:33:50 So, um, my website, but also, um, the cure, my concussion course that I put on there that I I’m sharing everything that I needed to learn, not to do and to do, uh, to cure my concussion. And there’s literally, there are so many things that you can do that I didn’t know about in the beginning as well, but also that doctors really don’t know to tell you about a lot of the times. So give yourself this room to discover, uh, whatever is possible. And from my experience I can share there’s so much possible. Uh, even when you feel like you’re really hitting rock bottom. Mm
Speaker 0 00:34:35 That’s great. That’s great. So how do people reach out to you if they wanna talk with you more
Speaker 3 00:34:41 So they can visit life.com? So there is L I F E Y a N a, um, dot com and also, uh, on Instagram or Facebook. It is at, this is live Yana.
Speaker 0 00:34:54 Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I’m sure that everyone is just gonna wanna reach out to you.
Speaker 3 00:35:01 <laugh> thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation and you asked really wonderful questions. Oh,
Speaker 0 00:35:07 Thank you. <laugh> I was honored to have you on
Speaker 3 00:35:10 Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 00:35:17 Thank you for joining us today on the TBI therapist podcast, please visit TBI therapist.com for more information on brain injury, concussion, and mental health. The information shared on today’s podcast is intended to provide information awareness and discussion on the topic. It is not clinical or medical advice. If you need mental health or medical advice, please seek a professional.
